The Veganism Thread

[Patchelicious]

For those who think veganism is a great philosophy of life and that a vegan body is inherently disease-free, let me clarify your myth about healthy eating.

 

A diet which lacks dairy, eggs, and meat is inherently lacking in proteins. A pure vegan can experience iron, calcium, and Vitamin D and B12 deficiency.

 

These could be risk factors for anemia or bone fractures. In short, just by removing animal products from the diet doesn’t make the diet healthy.

 

So, in short, veganism might help a few - it is definitely not a sustainable diet, especially for growing children as it could lead to numerous nutritional deficiencies. 

 

[Odinson]

For those who think veganism is a great philosophy of life and that a vegan body is inherently disease-free, let me clarify your myth about healthy eating.

 

A diet which lacks dairy, eggs, and meat is inherently lacking in proteins. A pure vegan can experience iron, calcium, and Vitamin D and B12 deficiency.

 

These could be risk factors for anemia or bone fractures. In short, just by removing animal products from the diet doesn’t make the diet healthy.

 

So, in short, veganism might help a few - it is definitely not a sustainable diet, especially for growing children as it could lead to numerous nutritional deficiencies. 

 

Show me the evidence to support your position. [Edit: otherwise, Hitchen's razor will be employed]

 

Oh, and who are you? Pseudonym account? Hmmmm. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Odinson

[GrahamS2]

That 95% eat meat because it oftentimes made artificially cheap through subsidies and other methods. Strip those away and we'll see the real price.

 

There's so much more nuance to this. What's the point of reaching protein targets, but then you have populations that are either under-or over nourished and riddled with chronic illnesses? You end up with governments providing subsidies to make meat cheap, but you also have skyrocketing public healthcare costs.  

I agree with you on most of that, but I think you may be looking at if from a developed country perspective. In the 3rd world, poor hungry people eat whatever they can lay their hands on. If it has to die, and how it dies, is of little consequence to them. 

[Eldron]

You are 100% correct - we can all try and do a little something to leave the planet a better place when we exit than when we entered . Unfortunately it's not always possible.

 

I certainly do not have a problem with anyone doing whatever they want in their own house/lives .The only beef ( I couldn't help myself there ) I have with vegans ( and for that matter religious people and anybody else ) is if they become militant and try and enforce their ways or believes on me .

If I am sitting in a restaurant enjoying my steak and some hipster with a man bun millennial comes and spits on my steak and calls me a murderer , well , I am going to react to that - and it might not be in a very civil way .

 

That is a pretty extreme example and I'm sure anyone would react the same way (vegan or not).

 

One thing I do find quite amusing is that people pop into a vegan thread to give them a piece of their mind about vegans potentially giving them a piece of their mind. That's like knocking on a Jehovas Witness door at 5am on a Sunday morning to tell them not to knock on your door at 5am on a Sunday morning....

 

Of course there are fringe vegans who throw paint at fur wearers, question the waiter for 20 mins about the menu and will happily tell you all day long about how *** you are at life but these are few and far between in my experience.

 

Edit: Plus - you don't have to be any kind of stereotype to eat less meat - all you have to do is buy and eat less meat.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Eldron

[Patchelicious]

That is a pretty extreme example and I'm sure anyone would react the same way (vegan or not).

 

One thing I do find quite amusing is that people pop into a vegan thread to give them a piece of their mind about vegans potentially giving them a piece of their mind. That's like knocking on a Jehovas Witness door at 5am on a Sunday morning to tell them not to knock on your door at 5am on a Sunday morning....

 

Of course there are fringe vegans who throw paint at fur wearers, question the waiter for 20 mins about the menu and will happily tell you all day long about how *** you are at life but these are few and far between in my experience.

 

Edit: Plus - you don't have to be any kind of stereotype to eat less meat - all you have to do is buy and eat less meat.

How many threads turned to vegan debates before we had this thread.

[Odinson]

I agree with you on most of that, but I think you may be looking at if from a developed country perspective. In the 3rd world, poor hungry people eat whatever they can lay their hands on. If it has to die, and how it dies, is of little consequence to them. 

 

I agree. Maslow's hierarchy and all that. 

 

However, as seen in the the studies I posted, with increasing prosperity, comes a general increase in hedonism, translating in formerly poorer people wanting to indulge in more animal based foods, to them being the preserve of the wealthier 'classes'. You can see that in SA. Many black people have increased income and with that comes increases in consumption of animal products. What happens at the same time? Increases in obesity, CVD, diabetes and other lifestyle diseases. There are other risk factors too, of course. 

 

Here is where evidence-based policy can allow governments to educate people on proper nutrition and not dismiss a plant-centered diet as being one followed by the poor. 

[Milkman]

That is a pretty extreme example and I'm sure anyone would react the same way (vegan or not).

 

One thing I do find quite amusing is that people pop into a vegan thread to give them a piece of their mind about vegans potentially giving them a piece of their mind. That's like knocking on a Jehovas Witness door at 5am on a Sunday morning to tell them not to knock on your door at 5am on a Sunday morning....

 

Of course there are fringe vegans who throw paint at fur wearers, question the waiter for 20 mins about the menu and will happily tell you all day long about how *** you are at life but these are few and far between in my experience.

 

Edit: Plus - you don't have to be any kind of stereotype to eat less meat - all you have to do is buy and eat less meat.

 

 

Yea , sorry , my example is a bit extreme . In my mind it didn't sound so crude until I reread it now .

But I think you get my point regarding people enforcing their opinions/ways .

 

I don't think people pop in here with the intention of just giving someone a piece of their mind ?

Mostly people have different opinions regarding things like vegan diets , religion , gun control , politics etc and they then debate that with people that have a different opinion to theirs . Usually we just agree to disagree , but sometimes you actually learn something.

[GrahamS2]

I agree. Maslow's hierarchy and all that. 

 

However, as seen in the the studies I posted, with increasing prosperity, comes a general increase in hedonism, translating in formerly poorer people wanting to indulge in more animal based foods, to them being the preserve of the wealthier 'classes'. You can see that in SA. Many black people have increased income and with that comes increases in consumption of animal products. What happens at the same time? Increases in obesity, CVD, diabetes and other lifestyle diseases. There are other risk factors too, of course. 

 

Here is where evidence-based policy can allow governments to educate people on proper nutrition and not dismiss a plant-centered diet as being one followed by the poor. 

I still feel a properly balanced diet may yield better uptake in this instance, versus an 'extreme' diet which cuts out complete food types. But either option would be better than the current alternative. 

 

And I don't agree that the issue is specifically related to an increase in animal products. The issue is an increase in generally crap eating habits and consumption of salt, sugar, fat, and refined carbs that does most of the damage you mentioned.

Edited December 4, 2018 by GrahamS2

[Milkman]

I agree. Maslow's hierarchy and all that. 

 

However, as seen in the the studies I posted, with increasing prosperity, comes a general increase in hedonism, translating in formerly poorer people wanting to indulge in more animal based foods, to them being the preserve of the wealthier 'classes'. You can see that in SA. Many black people have increased income and with that comes increases in consumption of animal products. What happens at the same time? Increases in obesity, CVD, diabetes and other lifestyle diseases. There are other risk factors too, of course. 

 

Here is where evidence-based policy can allow governments to educate people on proper nutrition and not dismiss a plant-centered diet as being one followed by the poor. 

 

May I ask why you make the connection with obesity and animal based foods ?

I mentioned earlier that I wasn't sure why we have an obesity problem in SA , but I think it is more linked to an excessive carb diet and too much sugar ??

[J∆kk∆ls]

May I ask why you make the connection with obesity and animal based foods ?

I mentioned earlier that I wasn't sure why we have an obesity problem in SA , but I think it is more linked to an excessive carb diet and too much sugar ??

I have some very heavy set friends that don't eat meat and some very lean machine buddies that devour meat daily! 

[Eldron]

Yea , sorry , my example is a bit extreme . In my mind it didn't sound so crude until I reread it now .

But I think you get my point regarding people enforcing their opinions/ways .

 

I don't think people pop in here with the intention of just giving someone a piece of their mind ?

Mostly people have different opinions regarding things like vegan diets , religion , gun control , politics etc and they then debate that with people that have a different opinion to theirs . Usually we just agree to disagree , but sometimes you actually learn something.

 

Agreed on people enforcing their ways...nobody should do that....but....it's kinda getting to that point with the environment where sticking our heads in the sand and hoping the problem will go away is no longer a viable option.

 

The other problem is that the type of militant vegan you described is a recurring theme on this thread - people keep telling us that vegans should not tell them how to live their lives but are happy to tell vegans how to live their lives... That and a bunch of posters banging on about how much meat they eat and how reading a vegan thread makes them keen on eating a bunch of meat ( complete with photos).

 

The automated response to the vegan/reduced meat concept seems to conjure up exactly the vegan you described. It's tough to learn anything when you already stereotyped the "opposing side".

[J∆kk∆ls]

I agree. Maslow's hierarchy and all that. 

 

However, as seen in the the studies I posted, with increasing prosperity, comes a general increase in hedonism, translating in formerly poorer people wanting to indulge in more animal based foods, to them being the preserve of the wealthier 'classes'. You can see that in SA. Many black people have increased income and with that comes increases in consumption of animal products. What happens at the same time? Increases in obesity, CVD, diabetes and other lifestyle diseases. There are other risk factors too, of course. 

 

Here is where evidence-based policy can allow governments to educate people on proper nutrition and not dismiss a plant-centered diet as being one followed by the poor. 

Lord knows that eating properly as a vegan can be a very expensive exercise! Meat can be a cheap alternative to energy when eating! 

[Odinson]

I still feel a properly balanced diet may yield better uptake in this instance, versus an 'extreme' diet which cuts out complete food types. But either option would be better than the current alternative. 

 

And I don't agree that the issue is specifically related to an increase in animal products. The issue is an increase in generally crap eating habits and consumption of salt, sugar, fat, and refined carbs that does most of the damage you mentioned.

 

On the second paragraph, I agree with you partially. If we're referring to SA specifically and looking at the study I posted, folks were eating high amounts of sugar (the fact that you can buy 20kg bags of sugar in a normal grocer is actually insane), white bread, chicken and dairy. That type of diet, coupled with other factors, is a recipe for disaster. 

 

Now, the animal protein-obesity relationship: 

 

The potential impact of animal protein intake on global and abdominal obesity: evidence from the Observation of Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Luxembourg (ORISCAV-LUX) study.

 

 

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Our findings suggest that protein derived from animal sources, in particular from meat, fish and shellfish, may be associated with increased risk of both global and abdominal obesity among presumably healthy adults in Luxembourg. These findings suggest that lower animal protein intakes may be important for maintenance of healthy body weight.

 

(Yes, I know, it's just in Lux - Gummi! Watch out!)

 

What happens when you substitute animal for plant protein? 

 

A plant-based diet in overweight individuals in a 16-week randomized clinical trial: metabolic benefits of plant protein.

 

 

 

CONCLUSIONS:

These findings provide evidence that plant protein, as a part of a plant-based diet, and the resulting limitation of leucine and histidine intake are associated with improvements in body composition and reductions in both body weight and insulin resistance.

[Milkman]

 

On the second paragraph, I agree with you partially. If we're referring to SA specifically and looking at the study I posted, folks were eating high amounts of sugar (the fact that you can buy 20kg bags of sugar in a normal grocer is actually insane), white bread, chicken and dairy. That type of diet, coupled with other factors, is a recipe for disaster. 

 

Now, the animal protein-obesity relationship: 

 

The potential impact of animal protein intake on global and abdominal obesity: evidence from the Observation of Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Luxembourg (ORISCAV-LUX) study.

 

 

(Yes, I know, it's just in Lux - Gummi! Watch out!)

 

What happens when you substitute animal for plant protein? 

 

A plant-based diet in overweight individuals in a 16-week randomized clinical trial: metabolic benefits of plant protein.

 

 

 

I'm sorry , but I still don't see the connection between eating animal based foods and obesity ?

 

Of course eating too much meat is bad for you ( in more than just an obesity way ) , but so is eating too much of anything. Calories in minus calories burned equals fat ? Heck I am sure you can die from drinking too much water ??

I am sure that what you said regarding people's diets changing when they start earning more money to eating more animal based foods is true but I think that has got more to do with the taste of the food than the social status ? ( a loaf of bread isn't exactly as tasty as a T-bone steak ) . But how you then get the connection that because they eat animal based foods and therefore get obese - there I don't agree .

They might eat too much animal based foods along with their too much veggies and too much coke and therefore they are fat , but that's hardly the animal based foods fault now is it ?

Edited December 4, 2018 by Milkman

[Odinson]

I'm sorry , but I still don't see the connection between eating animal based foods and obesity ?

 

Of course eating too much meat is bad for you ( in more than just an obesity way ) , but so is eating too much of anything. Calories in minus calories burned equals fat ? Heck I am sure you can die from drinking too much water ??

I am sure that what you said regarding people's diets changing when they start earning more money to eating more animal based foods is true but I think that has got more to do with the taste of the food than the social status ? ( a loaf of bread isn't exactly as tasty as a T-bone steak ) . But how you then get the connection that because they eat animal based foods and therefore get obese - there I don't agree .

They might eat too much animal based foods along with their too much veggies and too much coke and therefore they are fat , but that's hardly the animal based foods fault now is it ?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "eat meat and you WILL get fat". What I'm saying is that the research shows that increasing your consumption of animal products corresponds to an increase in obesity risk and other lifestyle illnesses. Other factors may also increase your obesity risk, such as sendetarism, high alcohol consumption and so on. 

 

You touch on calories - how many people are familiar with the concept of calorie density? A 100g piece of cow offers way more calories than 100g broccoli. Thus, it is very easy to consume excess calories when eating animal products. The same also applies for stuff like oils and sugar. 

 

In the SA context, if you take someone on a crappy diet consisting of breads, sugar and so on and load up on meat too, you're just increasing that obesity risk. 

 

Edit: It helps to read the papers I've linked: 

 

 

 

The specific composition of dietary protein has been shown to influence the balance of glucagon and insulin activity14, which may play a role in body composition and insulin resistance12. A high intake of branched chain amino acids (leucine, isoleucine, and valine) can increase insulin resistance16. In addition, dietary restriction of sulfur containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine), is associated with a reduction in body weight, adiposity and metabolic changes in both adipose and liver tissues, which enhance insulin sensitivity and energy expenditure17. Plant protein low in sulfur also reduces blood lipids, homocysteine, and blood pressure18,19. Furthermore, low protein diets are also associated with increased life span, especially if the consumed protein is plant derived20.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Odinson

[Milkman]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "eat meat and you WILL get fat". What I'm saying is that the research shows that increasing your consumption of animal products corresponds to an increase in obesity risk and other lifestyle illnesses. Other factors may also increase your obesity risk, such as sendetarism, high alcohol consumption and so on.

 

You touch on calories - how many people are familiar with the concept of calorie density? A 100g piece of cow offers way more calories than 100g broccoli. Thus, it is very easy to consume excess calories when eating animal products. The same also applies for stuff like oils and sugar.

 

In the SA context, if you take someone on a crappy diet consisting of breads, sugar and so on and load up on meat too, you're just increasing that obesity risk.

 

Edit: It helps to read the papers I've linked:

 

I did try and read some of the link you posted but your links are sometimes a bit long and tedious to go through - sorry !

This one I did read most of , unfortunately it was filled with too many “may” , “might”, “can” and other vagueness to take seriously .

I agree with you though that increasing your animal based food intake too much can make you fat . That however I don’t think is the problem we have in SA ?

Here I think it is a bit more of increasing your intake of everything that is the problem ?!

 

Plus I have to ad that the link you posted actually states that “ proteins derived from eggs or milk products was unrelated to global or abdominal obesity “ so I was not sure what your point was with the link ?

Edited December 4, 2018 by Milkman