The Abortion Issue

[Gen]

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shocking-child-rape-loophole-put-an-end-to-my-childhood/news-story/c2fe3df2824894dce68e3676b087ba34

 

Laws, hey?

What the f@!k

[Uni]

what the actual fark!?

x 2

[Karooryder]

Robbie I applaud your resilience over the last couple days 

 

I do too. And I cannot help to sense a sincere oke behind the resilience.

 

Herein lies the irony.

 

I have followed this thread closely over the last couple of days (no, Andrew, I didn’t show up late for the party to only fart, enjoy the kerfuffle and leave  - I did however decide to enter the discussion at a specific point because I was never a fan of pack-mentality bullying). Robbie has been accused of many things over the last 22 pages and he stood firm in his belief and persuasions. His contributions were never emotionally fuelled but came from a place of true conviction. That is more than can be said for the cynicism and bitterness of a bunch of people who argue an issue such as abortion for the sake of settling a score with Christianity, rather than contributing to a diverse discussion. And ironically again, Robbie is the one accused of pushing a fundamentalist and radical mind set here…     

 

Robbie, even though I can’t agree with you on many points I admire your conduct and firm stance. I like how you keep your cool and systematically and politely explain what you mean and how you argue – even be it in a PM to Gen. I have no doubt that your intentions are good and admire your chip-less shoulder.       

 

[Escapee..]

Robbie I applaud your resilience over the last couple days 

 

I agree and like Stretch said, Robbie is spreading the word.

 

How many though is he winning over? 

 

Compassion and tolerance would go much further IMHO...

[Thor Buttox]

I do too. And I cannot help to sense a sincere oke behind the resilience.

 

Herein lies the irony.

 

I have followed this thread closely over the last couple of days (no, Andrew, I didn’t show up late for the party to only fart, enjoy the kerfuffle and leave - I did however decide to enter the discussion at a specific point because I was never a fan of pack-mentality bullying). Robbie has been accused of many things over the last 22 pages and he stood firm in his belief and persuasions. His contributions were never emotionally fuelled but came from a place of true conviction. That is more than can be said for the cynicism and bitterness of a bunch of people who argue an issue such as abortion for the sake of settling a score with Christianity, rather than contributing to a diverse discussion. And ironically again, Robbie is the one accused of pushing a fundamentalist and radical mind set here…

 

Robbie, even though I can’t agree with you on many points I admire your conduct and firm stance. I like how you keep your cool and systematically and politely explain what you mean and how you argue – even be it in a PM to Gen. I have no doubt that your intentions are good and admire your chip-less shoulder.

 

Differentiating between someone s character and someone's beliefs is critical. There is no direct correlation. Many religious people are bastards others are saints.

 

But that is also the point. You cannot assume beliefs based on intent. They should be analysed and evaluated as standalone items and judged as such.

 

Robbie's intentions are actually irrelevant. The affect on society is not. None of us here want dead babies.

[Odinson]

I do too. And I cannot help to sense a sincere oke behind the resilience.

 

Herein lies the irony.

 

I have followed this thread closely over the last couple of days (no, Andrew, I didn’t show up late for the party to only fart, enjoy the kerfuffle and leave  - I did however decide to enter the discussion at a specific point because I was never a fan of pack-mentality bullying). Robbie has been accused of many things over the last 22 pages and he stood firm in his belief and persuasions. His contributions were never emotionally fuelled but came from a place of true conviction. That is more than can be said for the cynicism and bitterness of a bunch of people who argue an issue such as abortion for the sake of settling a score with Christianity, rather than contributing to a diverse discussion. And ironically again, Robbie is the one accused of pushing a fundamentalist and radical mind set here…     

 

Robbie, even though I can’t agree with you on many points I admire your conduct and firm stance. I like how you keep your cool and systematically and politely explain what you mean and how you argue – even be it in a PM to Gen. I have no doubt that your intentions are good and admire your chip-less shoulder.       

 

 

Would you sing the same praises if this was a geology (or whatever) thread and Robbie was a flat-earther, spreading 'the truth'? 

[Piston ZA]

So what do they stand for? Where do they stand in the options I gave?

From your options, in my opinion somewhere between option 4 and 5. After that, only if the mother's life is at risk or the fetus is no longer viable/has a terminal condition.

[Karooryder]

Differentiating between someone s character and someone's beliefs is critical. There is no direct correlation. Many religious people are bastards others are saints.

 

I suspect that this is exactly where you and Robbie differ, in principle....

[Karooryder]

Would you sing the same praises if this was a geology (or whatever) thread and Robbie was a flat-earther, spreading 'the truth'? 

 

If he went about it in the same manner and with the same conviction as above, sure. That’s the core of constructive debate. Anyways, to each his / her own...be it radical atheists, flat earthers (sp?) or fundamental Christians – what’s the old South African saying…don’t’ be a box, be lekker.

Cheerz  

 

[Gen]

since i'm bored and can't go home yet i decided to read some of the posts here.

earlier there was mention of a baby / foetus / zygote / whatever being sinless and thus, does not deserve to die ,but this says that we are all born sinners thanks to Adam and Eve. Do I understand that correctly?

Basically we are screwed

 

I am sticking with that we evolved and I am responsible for my own actions and the consequences thereof.

[Thor Buttox]

I suspect that this is exactly where you and Robbie differ, in principle....

Yes, because I live in the real world and rely on evidence and an open mind. I agree with you, absolutely. I only ask, which of us has the more charitable, christian values when it comes to the topic of this thread?

[DR ◣◢]

Basically we are screwed

 

I am sticking with that we evolved and I am responsible for my own actions and the consequences thereof.

Whole different debate around baptism, born a sinner, etc.

 

Would actually make for a brilliant Friday topic.

[Robbie Stewart]

I do too. And I cannot help to sense a sincere oke behind the resilience.

 

Herein lies the irony.

 

I have followed this thread closely over the last couple of days (no, Andrew, I didn’t show up late for the party to only fart, enjoy the kerfuffle and leave  - I did however decide to enter the discussion at a specific point because I was never a fan of pack-mentality bullying). Robbie has been accused of many things over the last 22 pages and he stood firm in his belief and persuasions. His contributions were never emotionally fuelled but came from a place of true conviction. That is more than can be said for the cynicism and bitterness of a bunch of people who argue an issue such as abortion for the sake of settling a score with Christianity, rather than contributing to a diverse discussion. And ironically again, Robbie is the one accused of pushing a fundamentalist and radical mind set here…     

 

Robbie, even though I can’t agree with you on many points I admire your conduct and firm stance. I like how you keep your cool and systematically and politely explain what you mean and how you argue – even be it in a PM to Gen. I have no doubt that your intentions are good and admire your chip-less shoulder.       

 

 

Thank you for your honest reply, Karoo.

 

I made a conscious decision not to loose my cool. I will admit that it has not always been easy, and I very nearly did in a reply to a meme posted by Myles, but I apologised, and still wish I rather didn't post what I did.

 

As for my faith. I am persuaded by my beliefs. I have made a decision to stand by what I believe, regardless of the cost. That said, I am not "pushing" my beliefs on others, but as I am engaged on the topic, I will also not "back off" in the face of overwhelming opposition.

 

I do not harbour any ill feelings towards anyone, and will as I mentioned earlier, willingly engage with people who are interested, even if you do not agree with me. I am however fatigued of all the having to defend "myself". 

 

I will continue to discuss a topic as important as the right of a mother to end a pregnancy, and the side of my argument will always be to defend the rights of those who cannot defend themselves.

 

Let me clear up some misconceptions, some of my own doing:

 

Even though I am against abortion from a fundamental perspective, I am not blind to society, and it's needs. I concede that women will still undergo abortion. I agree that it is never a choice taken lightly. I agree that it is a traumatic event, regardless of what brought her to that point, and my heart goes out to her as she struggles in the days post abortion, with all the conflicting emotions she is suffering. I get all that, and I will be first in line to offer such a lady unconditional love and support, not because my faith compels me to, but that is just the type of person I am. But, that will still compel me to fight for the life of that unborn child as long as I have a chance to impact the life of that baby for the better. I am driven even more passionately by the fact that after 14 years of trying, and being told by many doctors, and even a respected professor of fertility that my chances are so slim to be basically impossible of fathering a child. My wife and I saw how parents have kids, how parents just take their kids for granted, how parents just choose to end the pregnancy, and every time it tore a gaping hole in our hearts. For 10 of those 14 years, it drove me to tears every time I see a baby "not wanted". It still hurts, especially for those people who struggle to have children.

 

Now that I am daddy to a beautiful girl about to turn 1 year old, I cannot imagine my life any better. 

 

But that is MY story. That is my reason for believing the way I do. When I look at my daughter, and I see the unconditional love and contentment in her face, my heart wants to explode. I want that for others. Maybe I am naive in believing it for everyone, but that is my own desire for humanity.

 

As for the rest of the posters on this thread, I respect their individual opinions, even though I too do not agree with everyone. Let us not hold grudges. At least we can be adult about the whole matter.

[Thor Buttox]

Thank you for your honest reply, Karoo.

 

I made a conscious decision not to loose my cool. I will admit that it has not always been easy, and I very nearly did in a reply to a meme posted by Myles, but I apologised, and still wish I rather didn't post what I did.

 

As for my faith. I am persuaded by my beliefs. I have made a decision to stand by what I believe, regardless of the cost. That said, I am not "pushing" my beliefs on others, but as I am engaged on the topic, I will also not "back off" in the face of overwhelming opposition.

 

I do not harbour any ill feelings towards anyone, and will as I mentioned earlier, willingly engage with people who are interested, even if you do not agree with me. I am however fatigued of all the having to defend "myself".

 

I will continue to discuss a topic as important as the right of a mother to end a pregnancy, and the side of my argument will always be to defend the rights of those who cannot defend themselves.

 

Let me clear up some misconceptions, some of my own doing:

 

Even though I am against abortion from a fundamental perspective, I am not blind to society, and it's needs. I concede that women will still undergo abortion. I agree that it is never a choice taken lightly. I agree that it is a traumatic event, regardless of what brought her to that point, and my heart goes out to her as she struggles in the days post abortion, with all the conflicting emotions she is suffering. I get all that, and I will be first in line to offer such a lady unconditional love and support, not because my faith compels me to, but that is just the type of person I am. But, that will still compel me to fight for the life of that unborn child as long as I have a chance to impact the life of that baby for the better. I am driven even more passionately by the fact that after 14 years of trying, and being told by many doctors, and even a respected professor of fertility that my chances are so slim to be basically impossible of fathering a child. My wife and I saw how parents have kids, how parents just take their kids for granted, how parents just choose to end the pregnancy, and every time it tore a gaping hole in our hearts. For 10 of those 14 years, it drove me to tears every time I see a baby "not wanted". It still hurts, especially for those people who struggle to have children.

 

Now that I am daddy to a beautiful girl about to turn 1 year old, I cannot imagine my life any better.

 

But that is MY story. That is my reason for believing the way I do. When I look at my daughter, and I see the unconditional love and contentment in her face, my heart wants to explode. I want that for others. Maybe I am naive in believing it for everyone, but that is my own desire for humanity.

 

As for the rest of the posters on this thread, I respect their individual opinions, even though I too do not agree with everyone. Let us not hold grudges. At least we can be adult about the whole matter.

And all of us can be inspired by this story. As it should be.

[BigDL]

Maybe I should not stick around for this fred.

 

My wife and I can not have kids according to doctors. We are on the adoption list, but so far nothing. Family friends have been on the list for 6 years and also nothing.

 

Reason for telling you this is, The state of Florida records a reason for every abortion that occurs within its borders each year. In 2015, there were 71,740 abortions in Florida. This table lists each reason and the percentage of abortions that occurred because of it.

 

That means that world wide, people who are dreaming of becoming parents, but can not lost 71740 possibilities.

 

I know this is not about adoptions and that I am probably coming with the wrong angle on the wrong fred, but still.

Sorry to hear this - would have thought that there would be huge numbers of kids desperate for adoption in SA

[Gen]

Sorry to hear this - would have thought that there would be huge numbers of kids desperate for adoption in SA

I think that may be through adoption agencies.. Orphanages are filled to capacity, think in this case it may just be parents who want to adopt from birth who struggle to find a baby.

 

My inlaws were approached by child services to foster a 7 month old baby..they didn't even go look for another child to adopt, they went through hoops but eventually could adopt her but she has been with them since she was 7 months old.. she is 13 years old now.