100mm Hardtails are death traps

[ajnkzn]

Hey Team

 

So riding along at Giba on my XC hardtail a few weeks ago, trying to do things I last tried 15 years ago on a downhill bike but I digress...

 

Survived all the hectic stuff and somehow had a low speed "lose the front after a little wooden bridge, speed wobble and ride off the trail and pile drive my head into a gulley" move.

 

Cracking your helmet, breaking a shoe and bending a saddle (bike didn't get a scratch cos it squashed me  ) gets one thinking...

 

Makes one realise pretty quick that unless your name is Jolanda or Nino, XC bikes need to either be treated with respect (i.e. still to tamer trails / slow down) or your skills have to be razor sharp.

 

Now I love my 29er hardtails and still maintain that they're the most versatile bike one can buy. Gravel bikes just aren't as usable on trail, soft surfaces or really rough roads.

 

The Silverback Slade Trail (and Yeti ARC now but I don't have R 150 k for a hardtail) seem like they'd be waaaaaay more fun for trail riding but the question is, can one ride a Slade or similar for a gravel 100 miler and not hate life?

 

Other cheaper options used would be Trek Roscoe and Spaz Fuse but the Slade Trail Spec is Proper.

 

Does a 140mm fork and 66 degree HA mean it'll be an absolute dog on flat and fast surfaces?

 

Any other ideas?

 

Sill not keen for a dual suss due to cost and maintenance and I'm a luddite so like to keep it as simple as possible.

[TomvdP]

Fairly recently I convinced a friend who was getting into riding that a Slade would be a better overall ride than most of the racey hardtails he was looking at, and a general no-fuss bike to own. He loving it and joins for trail rides, longer rides etc. And I got these messages recently where he'd taken it on a long multi-day gravel tour. I think he put gravel tyres on the standard wheels, but that was the only change.

 

I guess if you're racing to win, the specialist bike is king. But I reckon you can get 90% of the performance, and be more comfortable.

 

(Neither of us have any experience with road bikes)

Edited August 5, 2020 by Tomoutside

[Hello Ruan]

Makes one realise pretty quick that unless your name is Jolanda or Nino, XC bikes need to either be treated with respect (i.e. still to tamer trails / slow down) or your skills have to be razor sharp.

Well yes, dual suss is more forgiving and can make rougher terrain more approachable, as they are intended to do exactly that.

 

But you can ride some pretty hard stuff on a hardtail, you just need the ideal setup starting with a dropper post I would say and a bit more of a heels down approach.

This little neat graph is pretty nice to look at:

 

 

I have also done the hardtail thing, I think now there are far better options like the Slade, I think you can pretty much ride anything with that bike in a good setup.

 

Oh and last thing is, even though I ride a dual suss myself but I think for a great majority of the riding you will be just fine with a hardtail. Sometimes I wish I had a 2nd bike with shorter travel and sometimes a hardtail would just be awesome.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Hello Ruan

[Me rida my bicycle]

I have tested a Slade they are great fun and you can ride anything with anything. I know of someone who does long rides on a downhill bike with triple clamp fork.

I ended back at a carbon HT and with the new geo from brands like Scott, Trek and Spesialized throw in a dropper, fat rubber and 120mm fork you have a long distance machine climbs like a rocket and puts a big grin on your face when you point it down.

[RobbyB]

Replying to the OP...Giba does have some very tricky trails where a 100mm HT really isn't the ideal bike - except for the best of us who regularly use a HT on trails!

A dual suss is more ideal and a dropper post is wanted in some of the steeper drop-offs.

 

Although a HT XC bike is cheaper and less maintenance costs involved going forward, it isn't always the ideal bike for a beginner/intermediate who is keen on the "difficult" trails.

A more trail orientated HT bike is a little tougher climbing up (than going down) but one needs to look at what bike will most suit your requirements - and there is no bike that suits all conditions.

 

As a person who took up riding in my later years, I firstly bought a hard tail which I realised had limitations. Bought a dual suss (slacker angles than XC) and have loved the bike. It can handle all that I can throw at it. I have dropped the weight on my HT and use it for cyclo-cross type races - coz' its faster.

 

Do your research and buy the bike that suits what you need it to do...

[ajnkzn]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

I've thought long and hard about downcountrying (real word I promise) my bike.

 

Shorter stem, higher rise bars instead of the flat ones on there now and I have some lovely 25mm internal width Rovals so a Minion or Assegai on the front would help.

 

Biggest issue is 69 degree head angle and 27.2mm seat post so droppers are hard to find and limited travel from those available.

 

And it just doesn't jump happily haha.

 

Crazy thing is that Slade will weigh around 12kg with the right minor upgrades which isn't THAT far off my current bike...just worry about doing another 100 miler on gravel with a fair bit of tar and fast dirt and holding up the squad.

Edited August 5, 2020 by andrew5336

[mahleu]

Giba is twisty and tight, perfect for slightly smaller wheels and a bit more travel. 

But SA is stuck on 29er 100mm hardtails as the answer to everything.

Edited August 6, 2020 by mahleu

[rudi-h]

it's all about the geometry, not so much fact that it's a hardtail, neither is it the amount of suspension travel or the wheel size...

 

The physics is simple...

 

If you go downhill, your body shifts forward which places significant weight on the front wheel.  In this situation, an XCO bike is bad for 2 reasons:  1), way too much weight on your hands and therefore the front wheel, meaning you're more likely to wash out in a turn = crash and 2), your front wheel is loaded heavily and it's harder to lift, so if you hit a rock, root, stump or even an unexpected ditch, you have too much weight on the front wheel which = over the bar crash.  This doesn't mean that you can't ride fast with an XCO geometry bike, it's just that your safety factor for messing up is significantly reduced.

 

Slack bikes (with dropper posts) allow you to get your weight back which means your front wheel is "loose" with the majority of your weight centered at the BB and almost nothing on your hands.  This allows you to turn a lot sharper and safer.  Even if you can't pull a manual or hop over massive obstacles, just by unloading your arms you will likely get over almost any obstacle in your path.

 

I've been on an 10yo Trek XCO bike last year in a bike park and the difference in my riding ability on my enduro bike (SC 5010c) VS the XCO machine was absolutely mind blowing!  I literally had zero skill an confidence on the XCO machine.  I'm 100% confident that even with both the fork and shocks locked out on my own steed, I'd still be waaaaayyyy better off than the Trek, no matter how much mm's of travel you would throw at that thing

Edited August 5, 2020 by rudi-h

[Ryan White]

I've been riding my Slade Trail for a couple of months now. I generally ride at Tokai or around Table Mountain. Really been blown away by how capable it is. I am happy to take it on long rides around the mountain but also to point it down the DH tracks. My ability on the bike is definitely what is holding me back from actually riding them well though!

[Paul Ruinaard]

Hey Team

 

So riding along at Giba on my XC hardtail a few weeks ago, trying to do things I last tried 15 years ago on a downhill bike but I digress...

 

Survived all the hectic stuff and somehow had a low speed "lose the front after a little wooden bridge, speed wobble and ride off the trail and pile drive my head into a gulley" move.

 

Cracking your helmet, breaking a shoe and bending a saddle (bike didn't get a scratch cos it squashed me  ) gets one thinking...

 

Makes one realise pretty quick that unless your name is Jolanda or Nino, XC bikes need to either be treated with respect (i.e. still to tamer trails / slow down) or your skills have to be razor sharp.

 

Now I love my 29er hardtails and still maintain that they're the most versatile bike one can buy. Gravel bikes just aren't as usable on trail, soft surfaces or really rough roads.

 

The Silverback Slade Trail (and Yeti ARC now but I don't have R 150 k for a hardtail) seem like they'd be waaaaaay more fun for trail riding but the question is, can one ride a Slade or similar for a gravel 100 miler and not hate life?

 

Other cheaper options used would be Trek Roscoe and Spaz Fuse but the Slade Trail Spec is Proper.

 

Does a 140mm fork and 66 degree HA mean it'll be an absolute dog on flat and fast surfaces?

 

Any other ideas?

 

Sill not keen for a dual suss due to cost and maintenance and I'm a luddite so like to keep it as simple as possible.

Sounds to me you ran out of talent or your recall of your skills was a little rusty. if you dont practice the skills they tend to be forgotten. Don't blame the bike, it is what it is, you know its performance envelope and if you push it and it bites you because you are trying to make it do things that then result in an unusual situation you as. arider cant handle its not the bike....

 

FWIW you are trying to win a Grand Prix with a 4 x 4 - use appropriate machinery and build the skills up. Taking my gravel bike off road on single track is a mission and will likely be a lot less fun than the dual suspension MTB. But on gravel roads it will kill the MTB.

 

Sounds to me like you are looking for a unicorn.....

 

#justsaying

[DieselnDust]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

I've thought long and hard about downcountrying (real word I promise) my bike.

 

Shorter stem, higher rise bars instead of the flat ones on there now and I have some lovely 25mm internal width Rovals so a Minion or Assegai on the front would help.

 

Biggest issue is 69 degree head angle and 27.2mm seat post so droppers are hard to find and limited travel from those available.

 

And it just doesn't jump happily haha.

 

Crazy thing is that Slade will weigh around 12kg with the right minor upgrades which isn't THAT far off my current bike...just worry about doing another 100 miler on gravel with a fair bit of tar and fast dirt and holding up the squad.

 

 

The Slade will be a kilo lighter with gravel tyres on it.

It's a heavy frame alright but the lack of speed has more to do with the MTB gearing vs the gravel bikes gearing (Gravel bikes have a bigger chainring)

You could build the Slade with a 2x system and use the big ring for the gravel stuff and the inner ring for the mtb stuff. This way you don't phaff with changing parts other than tyres

[openmind]

There is a huge amount of pleasure to be had from trying to ride stuff that is, on paper, "too technical" for the bike you're on, i.e. being under-biked. It puts you on your guard, heightens the thrill and does wonders for your skills. In my experience it makes you fall in love with riding again.

 

My first 29er was a Niner Air 9 Carbon with the rigid Niner carbon fork that I got after riding a full sus 26er for a number of years. I rode all the trails and singletrack that I did with the old bike and after a few scares got the skills up enough to stay alive. Fun factor was 110% although the hands took a beating after a while. After a year or so I put a squishy fork on it to get me through the multi-stage races

 

Then a few years ago I got a gravel bike. I'm an old roadie and wanted a road-like bike that would not mind riding next to the road if the traffic got gnarly. I soon found myself riding Jonkerhoek singletrack on the gravel bike for the same reason - go under-biked every now and then to remind yourself where the edge of the envelope is (not always where you think it will be). 

 

I realise I have the luxury of multiple bikes. If you can only have one, you'll need to pick more carefully. If I could only have one, it would be my 100mm dual sus XC bike with lockout (and with two sets of tyres). 

 

Most bikes are far more capable than the marketing people want us to think. Just pick your lines properly. 

[gummibear]

There is a huge amount of pleasure to be had from trying to ride stuff that is, on paper, "too technical" for the bike you're on, i.e. being under-biked. It puts you on your guard, heightens the thrill and does wonders for your skills. In my experience it makes you fall in love with riding again.

 

My first 29er was a Niner Air 9 Carbon with the rigid Niner carbon fork that I got after riding a full sus 26er for a number of years. I rode all the trails and singletrack that I did with the old bike and after a few scares got the skills up enough to stay alive. Fun factor was 110% although the hands took a beating after a while. After a year or so I put a squishy fork on it to get me through the multi-stage races

 

Then a few years ago I got a gravel bike. I'm an old roadie and wanted a road-like bike that would not mind riding next to the road if the traffic got gnarly. I soon found myself riding Jonkerhoek singletrack on the gravel bike for the same reason - go under-biked every now and then to remind yourself where the edge of the envelope is (not always where you think it will be). 

 

I realise I have the luxury of multiple bikes. If you can only have one, you'll need to pick more carefully. If I could only have one, it would be my 100mm dual sus XC bike with lockout (and with two sets of tyres). 

 

Most bikes are far more capable than the marketing people want us to think. Just pick your lines properly. 

The majority for people on race bikes would be more comfortable and have more confidence on a 120 or 130mm bikes.

[RocknRolla]

I disagree with your thread title OP.

 

Went to Giba with my 100mm steel hardtail and had loads of fun, and i'm still alive. My heart had a better chance of killing me at that stage of fitness than the bike did.

 

I agree with openmind, ride the xc bike and your skills will develop like back in the day when you did DH.

 

If you are posting to get some kind of support for your justification to get a new bike, by all means, do it. The correct number of bikes to own is n+1

 

If I had the means, I would have a bike of all disciplines in my garage. That's why I'm stuck with my current bike for life. So it has to suffice on the long gravel days, the grin-till-your-cheeks-hurt at Giba and Karkloof, and the loose rocky trails up here in Gauteng.

 

It still is more bike than I can handle. Even with a steep HA, 100mm fork and no dropper.

[Spafsack]

I love technical, always have. Slow, steady, two fingers on breaks at all times, down steep drops, rocks, that kind of stuff. At my age i should not be doing this lol but i do it none the less and keep up with mates who are younger, and are on proper trail bikes. Best thing i did was buy a dropper. Most important thing is moving your weight around.

 

On steep downs my ass is hanging over the back wheel, it is truly amazing what a hard tail can do. Mine is a silverback superspeed 2, not the usual choice for this type of riding, but you cant believe how it can perform. I have never needed more than 100mm travel either. The fun part is when you done with the technical and need to climb back up, or go home, long gravel roads, then you dam glad you have a lightweight hardtail. 

 

Just to add, the dropper has been the single best add on i have ever done. Not only can you move around better, on high speed downhills, anything can happen, and you dont want your seat in the way.

[mahleu]

I disagree with your thread title OP.

 

Went to Giba with my 100mm steel hardtail and had loads of fun, and i'm still alive. My heart had a better chance of killing me at that stage of fitness than the bike did.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree. Before I got back into riding, I went around Giba on my old 26er Trek 4500 complete with pogo stick fork and V brakes. I had a ball.