Advice needed For Post Bike Sale

[AdamA]

Why do you apologise for upsetting people and then just keep heading down the rabbit hole?

 

What do Shimano warranties, insurance, Bike Hub Pay etc have to do with anything? 

 

Sometimes it's alright to be wrong and to just walk away... At the very least, thanks for the entertainment your "arguments" have brought to this thread. It would have died off days ago if it wasn't for you.

 

 

Just for some context, what is your interest in all of this?

 

 

I'd also like know. Surely there must be something more to his persistence? I see only three possibilities:

 

1) AdamA knows the seller (and is possibly the friend he sold the bike for)

2) Trolling

3) AdamA, the Hubber that is well known for being a great buyer and seller of goods in the classifieds (5 star ratings all round) has recently succumbed to his alter ego, AdamB, who dislikes buyers with such veracity that he loses sleep thinking about them and must publicly voice his disagreements regarding their poor regard for due diligence in ensuring they are not conned by sellers (who by his definition are innocent of all possible wrongdoing).

 

 

1) as I have said before I don't know the seller, I will add that I also don't know the original owner or buyer. 

2) sometimes I do play Devils Advocate a bit to often.

 

I am genuinely concerned that buyers enter into sales without knowing their responsibilities. I have done this in the past and been burnt by the outcome.

 

I am even more genuinely concerned to find that I (as a seller) may have been exposing myself to POST sale liabilities that I was unaware of.

 

 

You don't have to agree with me, but please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you logic on. 

[Meezo]

Hubbers seriously

 

... There's an ignore feature/function.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Meezo

[eddy]

 

2) sometimes I do play Devils Advocate a bit to often.

 

 

You don't have to agree with me, but please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you logic on. 

 

 

What are your qualifications to expound on the law and to be an advocate of any stripe? 

 

So, "please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you (sic) logic on" as it is not based on an well founded understanding of the law.

[TOPJOLR645]

Buying a bike that you don’t test/see/touch etc is always going to be a risky move. Not sure if that’s been mentioned anywhere yet????. I been burnt many times buying bikes I didn’t go test first, nowadays if I can’t see it and ride it first then I ain’t buying it (doesn’t apply to new bikes obviously)

[TNT1]

Buying a bike that you don’t test/see/touch etc is always going to be a risky move. Not sure if that’s been mentioned anywhere yet. I been burnt many times buying bikes I didn’t go test first, nowadays if I can’t see it and ride it first then I ain’t buying it (doesn’t apply to new bikes obviously)

Look, there's plenty of secondhand bargains in other provinces, there's also plenty of trustworthy hubbers who will go and check it out for you before you decide. One of the best things about this forum in my opinion.

[Bicycle Yard WESTERN CAPE]

Seller has a responsibility towards the buyer. Do review the situation on his page so other buyers can be informed to be extra cautious.

 

Would say that as you requested a refund he should have come to the party and refunded as requested.

 

I had a client that i sold a frame to, and he complained about the jockey hanger not being on there where the pictures were very clear. And he said i should be more transparent on my adds.

[Bicycle Yard WESTERN CAPE]

Look, there's plenty of secondhand bargains in other provinces, there's also plenty of trustworthy hubbers who will go and check it out for you before you decide. One of the best things about this forum in my opinion.

[AdamA]

What are your qualifications to expound on the law and to be an advocate of any stripe? 

 

So, "please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you (sic) logic on" as it is not based on an well founded understanding of the law.

 

I don't have any legal/law qualifications, only a few dealings with lawyers in the past, and from that I derive that 

 

1. the legal process is slow

2. lawyers only talk to other lawyers

3. the courts will only deal with facts that can be proven, not hearsay

 

I will supply basis for my (sic) logic, by the end of the weekend.

 

But for starters, if this goes to court, the buyer can't even prove he bought the bike from the seller

- he doesn't have a TAX Invoice.

- he paid the money onto someone else's bank account.

 

 

Edit1 : Private sales are not covered by CPA

https://www.polity.org.za/article/second-hand-purchases-are-consumers-protected-by-the-cpa-or-not-2018-12-05

 

"A consumer who purchases second-hand or used goods will also enjoy protection from the Act except when:

• The sale of second-hand goods by the supplier to the consumer does not fall within the supplier’s ordinary course of business; and/or
• The consumer purchases the goods through an auction; or
• More than six months have passed since the purchase."

 

Edit 2: Voetstoods clause in private sales is valid

https://nuus.fodb.co.za/?p=1093

 

Consumers considering to buy a second-hand motor vehicle or some other high-value second-hand item would thus be wise to rather buy such an item from a dealership as opposed to a private person who is entering into a once-off sale, since voetstoots clauses between private persons entering into a sale agreement will still be valid (except if such private person wilfully concealed the defects).

 

https://www.bregmans.co.za/voetstoots-and-the-private-seller-what-are-your-rights/

The CPA would protect a buyer who buys a car from a dealer. However, a private sale of property is not a transaction which falls within the ambit of the CPA, as you were not acting within the ordinary course of your business, and therefore the common law position applies.

Edited February 9, 2021 by AdamA

[Bicycle Yard WESTERN CAPE]

Buying a bike that you don’t test/see/touch etc is always going to be a risky move. Not sure if that’s been mentioned anywhere yet????. I been burnt many times buying bikes I didn’t go test first, nowadays if I can’t see it and ride it first then I ain’t buying it (doesn’t apply to new bikes obviously)

I don't agree with that entirely. I have bought two bikes new, that had frame issues and was refunded. Only difference is that there is a warranty aspect. Which i hope to introduce sometime soon aswell, regarding the selling of secondhand bikes. But as much issues as a second hand bike gives, a Brand Spanking new one can also give. Chances are like 75% less depending on the seller as the hubber explained. But issues are down to Morals of the seller.

[FreeSoul]

I don't have any legal/law qualifications, only a few dealings with lawyers in the past, and from that I derive that 

 

1. the legal process is slow

2. lawyers only talk to other lawyers

3. the courts will only deal with facts that can be proven, not hearsay

 

I will supply basis for my (sic) logic, by the end of the weekend.

 

But for starters, if this goes to court, the buyer can't even prove he bought the bike from the seller

- he doesn't have a TAX Invoice.

- he paid the money onto someone else's bank account.

 

 

Edit1 : Private sales are not covered by CPA

https://www.polity.org.za/article/second-hand-purchases-are-consumers-protected-by-the-cpa-or-not-2018-12-05

 

"A consumer who purchases second-hand or used goods will also enjoy protection from the Act except when:

• The sale of second-hand goods by the supplier to the consumer does not fall within the supplier’s ordinary course of business; and/or
• The consumer purchases the goods through an auction; or
• More than six months have passed since the purchase."

 

Edit 2: Voetstoods clause in private sales is valid

https://nuus.fodb.co.za/?p=1093

 

Consumers considering to buy a second-hand motor vehicle or some other high-value second-hand item would thus be wise to rather buy such an item from a dealership as opposed to a private person who is entering into a once-off sale, since voetstoots clauses between private persons entering into a sale agreement will still be valid (except if such private person wilfully concealed the defects).

 

https://www.bregmans.co.za/voetstoots-and-the-private-seller-what-are-your-rights/

The CPA would protect a buyer who buys a car from a dealer. However, a private sale of property is not a transaction which falls within the ambit of the CPA, as you were not acting within the ordinary course of your business, and therefore the common law position applies

 

Arno, no-one gives a **** about your opinions on this matter, specifically me! Forget about what I can or cant prove, the bottom line it's the right thing to do if he wants to continue selling "privately" and maintain his reputation.

[AdamA]

I don't agree with that entirely. I have bought two bikes new, that had frame issues and was refunded. Only difference is that there is a warranty aspect. Which i hope to introduce sometime soon aswell, regarding the selling of secondhand bikes. But as much issues as a second hand bike gives, a Brand Spanking new one can also give. Chances are like 75% less depending on the seller as the hubber explained. But issues are down to Morals of the seller.

 

 

Frame warranties only apply to the original owner. TITAN is the only manufacturer that has a 5 year multi-user frame warranty (with T&C) 

 

 

Bike Market are the only second hand dealer that warranty frames ( In their own capacity) and maybe CycleLab with their 30day money back guarantee.

 

Frame warranty, valid for 3 months

Our second hand bicycles come with a 3 month frame warranty.  This means if a crack is detected that compromises the integrity of the frame, call us and we will replace it with an equivalent.

 

Kudo's to Titan and Bike Market for understating the South African secondhand market.

[AdamA]

Arno, no-one gives a **** about your opinions on this matter, specifically me! Forget about what I can or cant prove, the bottom line it's the right thing to do if he wants to continue selling "privately" and maintain his reputation.

 

FreeSoul, I thought you left left the conversation last week. You have chosen the legal option and I wish you the best with that.

 

This is now a conversation/debate on the Liabilities of the Seller and the Responsibilities of the Buyer. Unfortunately we are using your transaction as an example, but what comes out of here will determine how I Buy and Sell in future (if I buy and sell in future).

[Edge_Design]

1) as I have said before I don't know the seller, I will add that I also don't know the original owner or buyer. 

2) sometimes I do play Devils Advocate a bit to often.

 

I am genuinely concerned that buyers enter into sales without knowing their responsibilities. I have done this in the past and been burnt by the outcome.

 

I am even more genuinely concerned to find that I (as a seller) may have been exposing myself to POST sale liabilities that I was unaware of.

 

 

You don't have to agree with me, but please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you logic on. 

 

Your source of information is clearly Advocate Google - be careful of that...

 

If you sell a product to someone then you have an obligation to them - whether that is moral or legal should be irrelevant if you are a half decent person. You don't appear to be interested in the former and that says something about you hence the suggestion you should walk away quietly.

 

In this case the buyer has effectively admitted there were problems with the bike he sold (whether it is the FD, RD or crank or all 3 is once again irrelevant) - as far as I can make out he has NOT rectified those problems. He has claimed he will do so under a very specific set of conditions thus making it as inconvenient as possible for the buyer.

 

Would the buyer "win" if this went to court - I don't know for sure but I think he would as the seller should reasonably have known about the issues identified (length of crank and crack in derailleur). It would however be a painful process for both parties. Is the damage to the seller's reputation worth it - only he can decide.

 

In another post you mention he paid the money into someone else's account and can't even prove who he bought it from. Either I've missed something in this thread or you know more about this transaction than you're letting on...

[eddy]

I don't have any legal/law qualifications, only a few dealings with lawyers in the past, and from that I derive that 

 

1. the legal process is slow

2. lawyers only talk to other lawyers

3. the courts will only deal with facts that can be proven, not hearsay

 

I will supply basis for my (sic) logic, by the end of the weekend.

 

But for starters, if this goes to court, the buyer can't even prove he bought the bike from the seller

- he doesn't have a TAX Invoice.

- he paid the money onto someone else's bank account.

 

 

Edit1 : Private sales are not covered by CPA

https://www.polity.org.za/article/second-hand-purchases-are-consumers-protected-by-the-cpa-or-not-2018-12-05

 

"A consumer who purchases second-hand or used goods will also enjoy protection from the Act except when:

• The sale of second-hand goods by the supplier to the consumer does not fall within the supplier’s ordinary course of business; and/or
• The consumer purchases the goods through an auction; or
• More than six months have passed since the purchase."

 

Edit 2: Voetstoods clause in private sales is valid

https://nuus.fodb.co.za/?p=1093

 

Consumers considering to buy a second-hand motor vehicle or some other high-value second-hand item would thus be wise to rather buy such an item from a dealership as opposed to a private person who is entering into a once-off sale, since voetstoots clauses between private persons entering into a sale agreement will still be valid (except if such private person wilfully concealed the defects).

 

https://www.bregmans.co.za/voetstoots-and-the-private-seller-what-are-your-rights/

The CPA would protect a buyer who buys a car from a dealer. However, a private sale of property is not a transaction which falls within the ambit of the CPA, as you were not acting within the ordinary course of your business, and therefore the common law position applies.

 

 

Perhaps you should stop digging a hole for yourself. Your commentary is either nonsense or irrelevant. It sometimes is both.

[AdamA]

Your source of information is clearly Advocate Google - be careful of that...

 

If you sell a product to someone then you have an obligation to them - whether that is moral or legal should be irrelevant if you are a half decent person. You don't appear to be interested in the former and that says something about you hence the suggestion you should walk away quietly.

 

In this case the buyer Seller has effectively admitted there were problems with the bike he sold (whether it is the FD, RD or crank or all 3 is once again irrelevant) - as far as I can make out he has NOT rectified those problems. He has claimed he will do so under a very specific set of conditions thus making it as inconvenient as possible for the buyer.

 

Would the buyer "win" if this went to court - I don't know for sure but I think he would as the seller should reasonably have known about the issues identified (length of crank and crack in derailleur). It would however be a painful process for both parties. Is the damage to the seller's reputation worth it - only he can decide.

 

In another post you mention he paid the money into someone else's account and can't even prove who he bought it from. Either I've missed something in this thread or you know more about this transaction than you're letting on...

 

Hi Edge, Thanks for your comment.

 

Yes, maybe I need to be careful of where I get my advice.

 

 

Yes the seller admitted there were problems (FD and Crank) which he offered to rectify but after the buyer said he was going the legal route things stopped to allow the legal proceedings to take effect (I ASSume)

 

The buyer also admitted that he took it for a test ride (although he omitted it from the OP) and also admitted 'All looks good', [2021/01/15, 11:44:24] Luke: Hi. Got the bike! All looks good. Are the original decals under the new ones?

 

I think (for what its worth (which seems to be less with every post I make)), there is a moral responsibility from the seller to either admit he didn't inspect the bike properly when he received it, or that the RD Impact could have happened in his possession. 

 

We are forgetting that prior to the sale the seller no dodgy dealings, and subsequently, after the sale has had 11 more  5* reviews.

 

 

Regarding payment ... from Buyer's whatsApp Transcript:

 

[2021/01/08, 15:56:34] Luke: Thanks. Can you send me your bank details?

OMITTED

[2021/01/08, 16:00:05] S Works: It's my friend's details. You can just pay him.

Edited February 9, 2021 by AdamA

[Rock Guy]

I don't have any legal/law qualifications, only a few dealings with lawyers in the past, and from that I derive that 

 

1. the legal process is slow

2. lawyers only talk to other lawyers

3. the courts will only deal with facts that can be proven, not hearsay

 

I will supply basis for my (sic) logic, by the end of the weekend.

 

But for starters, if this goes to court, the buyer can't even prove he bought the bike from the seller

- he doesn't have a TAX Invoice.

- he paid the money onto someone else's bank account.

 

 

Edit1 : Private sales are not covered by CPA

https://www.polity.org.za/article/second-hand-purchases-are-consumers-protected-by-the-cpa-or-not-2018-12-05

 

"A consumer who purchases second-hand or used goods will also enjoy protection from the Act except when:

• The sale of second-hand goods by the supplier to the consumer does not fall within the supplier’s ordinary course of business; and/or
• The consumer purchases the goods through an auction; or
• More than six months have passed since the purchase."

 

Edit 2: Voetstoods clause in private sales is valid

https://nuus.fodb.co.za/?p=1093

 

Consumers considering to buy a second-hand motor vehicle or some other high-value second-hand item would thus be wise to rather buy such an item from a dealership as opposed to a private person who is entering into a once-off sale, since voetstoots clauses between private persons entering into a sale agreement will still be valid (except if such private person wilfully concealed the defects).

 

https://www.bregmans.co.za/voetstoots-and-the-private-seller-what-are-your-rights/

The CPA would protect a buyer who buys a car from a dealer. However, a private sale of property is not a transaction which falls within the ambit of the CPA, as you were not acting within the ordinary course of your business, and therefore the common law position applies.

 

I haven't fact checked any of your statements and I am not a lawyer, but, let's assume what you're saying is correct. This basically means that all sales made via the classifieds on Bikehub through anyone that isn't a dealer puts the buyer at risk of financial loss, except for a few very specific conditions.

 

Now lets stop shooting holes in everything for a minute and see if there are any steps that a buyer can take to help ensure fair legal protection. Would a hand written and signed invoice help at all? (probably issued through a triplicate book, so both parties have a copy and one copy on record). This would at least prove the sale did happen. What about a contract laying out some very clear terms that are fair to both parties?

 

Again, I'm not a lawyer and have basically no experience in these matters (which probably makes me a law expert on Bikehub), so It would be great to hear the opinion and suggestions of someone that actually knows the law well.