Mountain bike riding style filter not only for dual-suspension

[MTBRIDER1234]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:30 PM, DonatelloOnPinarello said:

Yes, you get awesome hardtail trail bikes, but I highly doubt you gonna find many in the classifieds here. Wrong audience I’m afraid.

Couldn’t agree more, but when the entire hardtail offering available locally consists of either cheap entry level XC bikes, or ultra rare, super expensive ultralight XCO weapons ,you aren’t going to see that anytime soon. Ossie NL comments below is a case in point.

Look a little beyond your nearest Cycle Lab or Spez concept store - Hard-tails are amazing trail machines, and fun, and can provide a lot of bang for your buck enjoyment.

here is some light reading to hopefully teach you the error of your ways: (read that in comic sans please)

https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/BFeMAX

https://www.ninerbikes.com/products/sir-9/
 

https://nukeproof.com/products/2021-scout-275

https://vitusbikes.com/collections/sentier/products/vitus-sentier-29-vrx-mountain-bike
 

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-ZA/bikes/chameleon
 

and that is only scratching the surface…

in Europe almost every enduro race has a fully subscribed Hardtail category. The mega-avalanche has a good deal of riders on 130-160mm Hardtails. Trail Hardtails make amazing bike packing/Touring rigs if you want to get off the gravel on your bike packing adventure. 

Agreed 100%, great to see some ht love here

[DonatelloOnPinarello]

4 hours ago, MTBRIDER1234 said:

Agreed 100%, great to see some ht love here

There were a couple trail/gravity oriented Hardtail threads that were pretty active at a time. But they all seem to have quited down significantly lately. Not too sure why

[MTBRIDER1234]

I am also unsure why, as trail and enduro hardtails seem to be making something of a comeback (I love my yeti arc)

[kk6gan]

Just now, MTBRIDER1234 said:

I am also unsure why, as trail and enduro hardtails seem to be making something of a comeback (I love my yeti arc)

Can we please see it ?

[DonatelloOnPinarello]

1 hour ago, MTBRIDER1234 said:

I am also unsure why, as trail and enduro hardtails seem to be making something of a comeback (I love my yeti arc)

Sadly I think you will find it is only a perception of a comeback based on a small sample group of you and your likeminded riding buds. 

 

I am willing to bet you either directly imported your yeti, or got it through a non franchised, owner run enthusiast bike shop.

If you walk into a mainstream bike shop in South Africa at the moment and tell them you want a hardtail and your budget is anywhere north of R30k, they are going to look at you like you are mad. If you insist on a 130mm+ slack trail bike with 2.4-2-6 wide tires, a dropper post and riser bars, the salesmans head might literally explode.

I don't agree with it, but the market appetite for aggressive hardtails just doesn't seem to get attention in SA. It's very sad. 

[daveno7]

just filtering through this discussion and having a HT for riding recently, it just suits at certain times to have fun with...don't get me wrong but having a full suspension had its moments and the its abilities out weighed my skills...in some ways the marketing of bikes takes you away from what you actually need to ride...you could have a bike for every day of the week if you have the terrain close by...

here at home...mtb sometimes can mean the enduro scene...downhill for the young guys and girls to show amazing bravery ...cycling and bikes is about what appeals for a time...thats why we always go n+1 or n+2 or n+3 ...thats a bikes beauty..and I haven't touched a road bike in ages...

[Me rida my bicycle]

On 8/17/2021 at 3:45 PM, love2fly said:

I may be stirring a hornets nest here, so I am NOT telling anyone what to ride or what NOT to ride, just simply quoting my experience whereby I feel like hardtail is too much of a compromise. I don't mind pedalling the extra weight of a dualsuss, (I am not a small guy either) up a climb, and I love the compliance and ability to jump stuff over a meter even with only 120/100mm travel. I find I also get better traction on bump climbs and less fatigued on long rides. Some people love HT but I get close enough when I have to lock my fork/shock, something I don't do often.

Cost wise, I would take a good 2nd hand dualsuss over a new HT, and I would rather ride an alu dualsuss than a carbon HT.

 

Skill trumps travel any day of the week. 

I have seen loads of duals break pivots, frames and destroying wheels on jumps and drops.

Though duals might make some people feel invisible because they are not feeling what their bike is going through on the trails, so when they run out of bike is usually just a little past when they ran out of talent and your rear goes like a rabbits nose. 

 

 

[DonatelloOnPinarello]

34 minutes ago, daveno7 said:

just filtering through this discussion and having a HT for riding recently, it just suits at certain times to have fun with...don't get me wrong but having a full suspension had its moments and the its abilities out weighed my skills...in some ways the marketing of bikes takes you away from what you actually need to ride...you could have a bike for every day of the week if you have the terrain close by...

here at home...mtb sometimes can mean the enduro scene...downhill for the young guys and girls to show amazing bravery ...cycling and bikes is about what appeals for a time...thats why we always go n+1 or n+2 or n+3 ...thats a bikes beauty..and I haven't touched a road bike in ages...

I think the recently crowned world jump might disagree with your agist views. ???? 

[daveno7]

1 minute ago, DonatelloOnPinarello said:

I think the recently crowned world jump might disagree with your agist views. ???? 

and greg would be right ...amazing rider ...much older than Greg...then everyones younger...????

[daveno7]

1 minute ago, daveno7 said:

and greg would be right ...amazing rider ...much older than Greg...then everyones younger...????

forgot to add...we have a guy here Oisin O'Callaghan....world junior downhill champ 2020...great talent...more to see from him over the next few years..

[Nick]

On 8/17/2021 at 9:48 AM, martinza said:

It would be nice to be able to select the "riding style" filter aka Marathon or Trail for all mountain bikes, currently this is only available for dual-suspension mtbs. A hardtail can be a trail bike too

Is there a feature request page for bikehub?

Hi martinza

Thanks for the feedback. I meant to get back to sooner but the answer is long. 

It's a valid question and one I agonised over when deciding all the Classifieds categories and facets (it was a massive task, the spreadsheet is mind-numbing). In the end, I decided not to have "Riding Style" filter for Hardtail.

There are two sides that need to be considered in any Classifieds category decision: 1) creating the advert, and 2) browsing/filtering for it.

Filtering your search is benefitted by having more filters but creating your advert only gets more complex as you increase the requirements. We try to strike a balance here. And in this case, I decided to leave out "Riding Style" filter for Hardtails to simplify the advert listing process.

The Bike Hub Classifieds has a wide range of sellers with massively differing levels of knowledge. It has to cater for complete newbies up to the most knowledgeable in the country all in one system. Unlike an eCommerce store or brand website, there isn't an employee creating every listing with expert knowledge (even then online stores still get it wrong). We don't know who might be making the advert. People get confused, they get it wrong, or they simple don't know things. Not everyone shares the same level of interested in the technical side of cycling.

So we try to design an advert creation form that is easy to complete (spoiler: there's going to big design change to the ad creation form in the next week or two that I hope everyone will appreciate - I'm looking forward to to the feedback on that once it's live). But this also means that sometimes there isn't all the information that the searcher might like. We always prefer to have the bike listed than not being listed. The thinking is that you can always enquire further if you're interested which is better than never having a chance to see it at all. It can be intimidating not knowing the answers to questions.

Anyway, this was my thinking when deciding to not filter "Riding Style" in the Hardtail category:

1. The Hardtail category has a high proportion of newbies/low end bikes, so I'd like the advert creation form to have fewer questions to avoid them getting overwhelmed and abandoning. We want Bike Hub to be friendly to newcomers rather than scaring them.
2. Following on point 1, less knowledgeable riders don't know the distinction between and XC hardtail and Trail/Enduro Hardatil. Don't believe me? Go look at all the Anthems and Epics listed as Trail/Enduro bikes in the Dual Sus category here.
3. With reference to point 2, it's more than likely that the filter will get flooded with bikes that don't fit the description and end up having limited use.
4. While trail hardtails are hugely awesome, they are not all that common. So leaving out a potentially confusing field for a low volume item is a justifiable omission. 

Obviously, "Riding Style" is not the only consideration, there are many other facets that are considered for inclusion or omission from each category and sub-category. This is just the narrow reasoning for this case.

The reality is that with a public created content, there is always going to be some inaccuracies and less than ideal filters. Especially for the more niche and knowledgeable searchers.

We're hoping that with some thoughtful design and feedback from the community (like this thread), we can make it as easy to use and accurate as possible for all users in the future.

[ajnkzn]

On 8/17/2021 at 4:19 PM, Trashy said:

I don't see this as "stirring the hornet's nest" as much as stating your personal preference.

Stirring is telling people that their preference is wrong.

A full-sus is objectively better that a hardtail, just as a GTI is better than a Citi Golf.

Many people love the challenge of riding a bike that allows them to push the limits on every trail and there are skilled riders that will take a hardtail down places that ordinary riders wouldn't dare, on any type of bike.

I loved my hardtail and feel that it helped me to develop my skills under accelerated conditions because you've got to learn fast to keep up with downhill bikes. Full suspensions are inherently more forgiving and so you don't have to be as precise when riding gnarly trails.

There's a place for both of these.

 

In a market like ours, where short travel full sus bikes, which are seldom used beyond gravel roads, dominate, hardtail offer a taste of lightheartedness and fun. Always a good thing IMO.

There is a thread on a local motorbike forum titled, “Don’t be a Twatwaffle”.

 

Love to see people like Ossie and Love2Fly jumping on a thread about the functionality of the forum to perpetuate the South African prejudices that you need a dual sus for any MTB, that hardtails are for poor people and that being 82nd on a Strava segment rather than 87th justifies their input. 

 

Thanks guys. Let’s race and measure fun on any uphill, downhill, long or short ride.

 

One of the best things about this sport is the diversity and different options that we are blessed to have. 

 

I have friends that ride rocky singletrack on 700c gravel bikes and another who rode a 500km tar and gravel route on a steel trail hardtail. 

 

Not to to say I won’t ride a dual sus trail bike but my hardtails have served me well and it would pay any doubters to try a modern trail HT for interest’s sake  

 

Before you post, think if your input is needed and if it’s useful or entertaining. 

 

Otherwise maybe go back to your Banting smoothie and indoor trainer to get a top 400 in a Zwift race. 

 

Thanks bye. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by andrew5336

[MTBRIDER1234]

[ajnkzn]

[ChristiaanSt]

The famous James May once said that owning a Fiat Panda was more fun than a Ferrari as he could push it to its limits and drive on the edge on any road. Ferrari you have to take to a track to achieve this....

Same is for having a slack enduro hardtail. The simplest trails become crazy fast when you ride it and your line choices and other choices of direction has to be on point. Dual sus you can get away with a lot more mistakes.

I own both and I can tell you that the times I ride my hardtail I think I am going stupid fast and I must have a PB on Strava only to be disappointed to see that it wasn't. It puts the fun back in to the simple trails on your local network.

[martinza]

Wow Nick, what an awesome reply. Thanks for giving some insight into how the design decisions were made. I can see your point, and I think you're right about not overwhelming someone that wants to place an advert. It is at least quite easy to spot a trail/enduro bike just from the picture (it it's not a picture just of the saddle ????).