Road Bike - Disc or Calipers

[Cheese]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:53 PM, Jewbacca said:

hahahaha

I've had 2 disc road bikes over the last 8 years and never replaced a brake hood. A warped rotor due to what? If you warped a disc rotor, what would you have done to a brake track?

I've also hit many many potholes on my SLR wheels and previous gen rovals and never damaged them more than I would anything else. 

I'm not going to sway the OP with 'one is better than the other' because realistically, millions of people successfully ride both variants daily.

What I won't do is make bogus claims about dot fluid going everywhere 🤣

Or brake rub? Honestly, if you have brake rub then you and/or your mechanic need to be shot or educated. 

These are just things people who are afraid of change say 😋

Thanks, these should be issues you should then experience on a MTB as well, except maybe the issue with lighter wheels, Sounded like a valid argument so your rreponse on the issue added more value.

[Sid the Sloth]

3 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

 

I like my disc brakes because I can ride it in puddles and on some detours while using my carbon wheels with little fear of damaging the rims due to use (not a catastrophic accident).

 

Of the people I know with discs, all are really happy with them the majority of the time. Apart from when they are rubbing.

Not just the people who have bought it for themselves but the pros too. 

[Jewbacca]

57 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

the only consistent sensationalism is coming from your keyboard

Nonsense

By your previous reasoning, the other day while I was driving in Langebaan in the beach buggy, a brand new T-Cross crashed in front of me while going round a turning circle, which immediately makes my drum brakes superior to it's brand new ABS electronic assisted brakes as I could get around the same circle without crashing.

 

 

[Underachiever]

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

Definitely not shopping new .

So mostly it is caliper, but then I found one with Discs.

I have done around 120 000 km on my current roadbike and bought it second had , so looking for the best value I can get but that will last a few years as well.

 

Not sure what your budget is but a great bike shop in Kempton was selling rims brake Bianchi's with 11 spd Campag for really good prices.  No way that you will not be able to maintain such a bike for the new >5 years.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Underachiever

[DieselnDust]

11 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

Nonsense

By your previous reasoning, the other day while I was driving in Langebaan in the beach buggy, a brand new T-Cross crashed in front of me while going round a turning circle, which immediately makes my drum brakes superior to it's brand new ABS electronic assisted brakes as I could get around the same circle without crashing.

 

 

Amusing….

The points I made are ;

- disc brakes are no more safe than rim brakes

-disc brakes have their own set of issues in the wet which include noise, loss of performance, grabbing

- disc brakes rub 

- disc brake rotors warp (common and known issue)

- disc brakes require more maintenance such as brake bleeds , pad replacement, piston cleaning and lubricating

 

these issues all stem from more heat generated due to slowing from higher speeds and longer brake application that generates more heat. We don’t apply brakes as aggressively on an Mtb for as long ( no not even in a 4to5min DH race)

ir you spent more time riding your bike rather than being a condescending clown on an Internet forum you’d know these are all very real issues.

lastly I made the point buying the disc equipped bike would be a decision based on future proofing , it’s where the market is at and bike component manufacturers are intent on killing caliper brakes to align production around similar components between Mtb , road and gravel. Fewer parts to manage. 
 

So if I was in the market for a brand new bike now I’d get a disc brake equipped bike. It’s future proofed for whatever that might mean. The bike industry could through in a new mounting standard tomorrow  making all current frames obsolete.

if buying 2nd hand I would seriously consider a rim brake bike. They are well priced, already devalued, and there are plenty of wheel options available at great prices that are still highly negotiable.

 

[MudLark]

16 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

followed a friend down Chappies, he on discs , me on alloy rims with caliper brakes.

He didn't ride away from me and ended up losing a lot of skin when his rear brake locked up when the pads suddenly built up enough heat for friction to take over. It could have been nasty if a vehicle was coming the other way.

But hey, the kingmakers shout its better faster safer

Diesel, could you please explain a little bit better exactly what went wrong with the disc brakes? I am curious to understand better exactly how the failure occurred.

[Jewbacca]

1 minute ago, DieselnDust said:

Amusing….

The points I made are ;

- disc brakes are no more safe than rim brakes

-disc brakes have their own set of issues in the wet which include noise, loss of performance, grabbing

- disc brakes rub 

- disc brake rotors warp (common and known issue)

- disc brakes require more maintenance such as brake bleeds , pad replacement, piston cleaning and lubricating

 

these issues all stem from more heat generated due to slowing from higher speeds and longer brake application that generates more heat. We don’t apply brakes as aggressively on an Mtb for as long ( no not even in a 4to5min DH race)

ir you spent more time riding your bike rather than being a condescending clown on an Internet forum you’d know these are all very real issues.

lastly I made the point buying the disc equipped bike would be a decision based on future proofing , it’s where the market is at and bike component manufacturers are intent on killing caliper brakes to align production around similar components between Mtb , road and gravel. Fewer parts to manage. 
 

So if I was in the market for a brand new bike now I’d get a disc brake equipped bike. It’s future proofed for whatever that might mean. The bike industry could through in a new mounting standard tomorrow  making all current frames obsolete.

if buying 2nd hand I would seriously consider a rim brake bike. They are well priced, already devalued, and there are plenty of wheel options available at great prices that are still highly negotiable.

 

I spend plenty of time on my bike thanks. I ride in some way, shape or form every single day. All of my disc brake bikes and experience none of the problems you keep mentioning. 

I have done about 15000km since I last touched anything mechanical on the bike other than replacing the chain. So maintenance 'issues' don't really compute.

I think you will find I'm one of the least condescending people until people talk rubbish.. What you actually said in your post was this.....

'followed a friend down Chappies, he on discs , me on alloy rims with caliper brakes.

He didn't ride away from me and ended up losing a lot of skin when his rear brake locked up when the pads suddenly built up enough heat for friction to take over. It could have been nasty if a vehicle was coming the other way.

But hey, the kingmakers shout its better faster safer'

Anyway, I'm out. Just like 'The Brain' and your anti Spez agenda you've been pushing since you were GoLefty, it's a similar thing with disc brakes. 

OP, sorry, I picked a bone here and it detracted from your thread. 

If it were me I'd buy a disc brake bike for many reasons. As I've said, the braking 'power' isn't really one of them. 

I'm done on this subject. I shall direct my condescension elsewhere 

[The Ouzo]

re: discs warping, this for me is a user issue. The most common reason for discs warping is large temperature differences between parts of the disc. This would be heavy braking and coming to and staying at a dead stop for a period of time, where the pads sit will cool down slower than the rest. Same thing will happen in your car. Dont do this.

Second user issue I see far to often is water being squirted onto hot discs to cool them down. DO NOT DO THIS.

 

 

[Spirog]

16 hours ago, Cheese said:

Have a few options of 2014/5 models Bianchi with SRAM red 10 speed caliper brakes, vs Gian 2018 with 11 spd, and disc breaks.

I am leaning to the future proofing.

So now you're making it tough... I'm a through-and-through Bianchi man (currently riding my fifth one)... But my head would probably be turned towards the newer bike.

Isn't it a nice problem to have - choosing a new bike?

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, MudLark said:

Diesel, could you please explain a little bit better exactly what went wrong with the disc brakes? I am curious to understand better exactly how the failure occurred.

The Brakes didn’t fail , he was simply feathering wet brakes that didn’t provide stopping power, the rotor heated up to the point where the friction built up (quickly) and the rear wheel locked up very suddenly. The bike swapped ends and he was down in a flash. I saw similar occurrences during the ctct but in the descent to Hout bay which is less steep and the riders could control it. 
there is a learning curve that comes with the change in technology. Very few people will intentionally ride in the rain to learn how these brakes behave in those conditions so when faced with these characteristics for the first time on a wet road there are inevitable consequences. Safety is not inherent to disc brakes, it’s comes from better useage. 
 

i don’t know many people who will openly admit they’re not happy with their disc brake Road bike. I often hear comments like 

“ the ride is a stiffer but I’ll live with it..l”

or

” I ride with ear phones so the brake rub doesn’t bother me…”

or 

“ discs are the future so I’ll live with the downsides . Better brakes will come and I have the frame so…”

or any other justification. Very few people complain about a new tech that the pros are riding even if it isn’t working for them.

personally I’ll wait till the rotor warping and piston roll back issues are resolved through brakes designed for road bikes , not Mtb brakes adapted for a road application. Direct mount disc brakes doubt have enough oil volume and the mounts on the frame are often poorly aligned from the factory. With a metal frame the mounts can be faced, with carbon more inventive techniques are required.

all the aforementioned issues with disc brakes also occur on mtbs. Most riders don’t hear the rotor rub because it’s drowned out by trail noise and trail chatter plus general chitter chatter. Mtb brakes are heavier with bigger callipers and mtbs travel slower and the riders use the brakes differently. 
the move from rim brake to disc brake in Mtb had everything to do with mud clearance, comfort and rim life. I’d wear out a set of rims in 2 years of regular riding and racing in Europe. With Madura HS33 brakes I never had a stopping power problem. I did have a problem with mud stopping the wheel from turning. The conversation from V-brake to disc brake still took the better part of 6years and the benefits to component life were far more obvious in Mtb.

I can see road bikes moving to the ISO tab mounting systems to allow for better adjustability and provide some caliper float to reduce the impact of rotor rub. It’s early days, there’s a lot of development and evolution to come 

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, ouzo said:

re: discs warping, this for me is a user issue. The most common reason for discs warping is large temperature differences between parts of the disc. This would be heavy braking and coming to and staying at a dead stop for a period of time, where the pads sit will cool down slower than the rest. Same thing will happen in your car. Dont do this.

Second user issue I see far to often is water being squirted onto hot discs to cool them down. DO NOT DO THIS.

 

 

Warping is also about manufacturing. If the rotors aren’t temperature cycled at the factory to stress relieve then they will warp out in the field during normal usage. The manufacturers can’t control how you use the brakes only how they make them and most are stamped which is a cheap cop out. Others get around this by fitting the stamped rotor to an machined spider to add some control over any stress relieving. 
then in use as you say there are stresses that are induced due to usage. You don’t. Apply the same amount of pressure consistently. This will temperature cycle the rotor. It will warp. That’s why rotor trying tools are a must for mountain bikers but somehow roadies believe this is poor mechanic wrenching. It’s a maintenance issue the rider has to live with.

Mtb discs have been around for 25years and these issues still exist . What chance road bikes will solve it in 5?

[MudLark]

@DieselnDustThank you for the very detailed reply.

I wasn't aware of many of these issues in the deeper technical aspects.

I have personally very limited experience of quality (as opposed to Makro) bikes. I am a relatively new cyclist (going on five years now) and have personally only owned bikes with disc brakes – both mountain, road and gravel. I have used them quite a lot in the wet as well and been very impressed with how they work in the wet.

The rubbing issue is something that occasionally drives me a little bit nuts. I seem to spend a fair bit of time adjusting things and checking things out to make sure they don't rub whenever changing brake pads or swapping wheels out et cetera. but I seem to always be able to get it to a "no rub" point eventually. 

For what it is worthwhile also always mindful about overheating brake systems, whether in a car on a long steep downhill with a lot of weight in it or on a bicycle. I seen thus far at least have had limited issues with brake discs warping. Although I do notice that some of them do not have an entirely perfect run out. I may yet acquire more one of those brake disc adjustment tools.

I would have thought that rubbing is an excessively bad idea. I do know that on motorised machines, rubbing brakes – with a disc or drum –can eventually lock up as things expand et cetera. Depending upon circumstances it can be more than merely inconvenient.

My one experience with riding a quality rim brake bike is my wife's Bianchi C2C with Campag parts. It is a very nice bike and I was really surprised at how much more comfortable it is than my Emonda but I was very disappointed by the brakes and how much lever force was required to achieve an equivalent level of braking. But I gather from your post that that may be a function of brake pad and rim component quality. I also cannot say that I have ridden a quality rim brake bike in the wet.

[DieselnDust]

3 hours ago, Jewbacca said:

I spend plenty of time on my bike thanks. I ride in some way, shape or form every single day. All of my disc brake bikes and experience none of the problems you keep mentioning. 

I have done about 15000km since I last touched anything mechanical on the bike other than replacing the chain. So maintenance 'issues' don't really compute.

I think you will find I'm one of the least condescending people until people talk rubbish.. What you actually said in your post was this.....

'followed a friend down Chappies, he on discs , me on alloy rims with caliper brakes.

He didn't ride away from me and ended up losing a lot of skin when his rear brake locked up when the pads suddenly built up enough heat for friction to take over. It could have been nasty if a vehicle was coming the other way.

But hey, the kingmakers shout its better faster safer'

Anyway, I'm out. Just like 'The Brain' and your anti Spez agenda you've been pushing since you were GoLefty, it's a similar thing with disc brakes. 

OP, sorry, I picked a bone here and it detracted from your thread. 

If it were me I'd buy a disc brake bike for many reasons. As I've said, the braking 'power' isn't really one of them. 

I'm done on this subject. I shall direct my condescension elsewhere 

You do that. 

[The Ouzo]

5 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

Warping is also about manufacturing. If the rotors aren’t temperature cycled at the factory to stress relieve then they will warp out in the field during normal usage. The manufacturers can’t control how you use the brakes only how they make them and most are stamped which is a cheap cop out. Others get around this by fitting the stamped rotor to an machined spider to add some control over any stress relieving. 
then in use as you say there are stresses that are induced due to usage. You don’t. Apply the same amount of pressure consistently. This will temperature cycle the rotor. It will warp. That’s why rotor trying tools are a must for mountain bikers but somehow roadies believe this is poor mechanic wrenching. It’s a maintenance issue the rider has to live with.

Mtb discs have been around for 25years and these issues still exist . What chance road bikes will solve it in 5?

Diesel for the most part I respect your input on technical threads as you have experience in the real world, however on this one I’m seeing a strong personal bias against discs on road bikes and I think it’s clouding your logic. 
 

warping discs are not unique to bicycles and happen on discs that are much thicker and heavier and built to withstand more heat. The problem will never go away on metallic discs. As long as there are heat differences across the surface of the disc it will warp.  
Disc truing on mtb is that not more a case of the disc receiving more knocks to it?

 

your story of your mate descending chappies, sounds very suspect. Discs generally suffer less from lack of stopping power in the wet than rim brakes, to suddenly lock up my logic tells me his rear wheel hit a patch of something on the road that caused sudden loss of traction rather than the brakes suddenly biting. 

[DieselnDust]

4 minutes ago, MudLark said:

@DieselnDustThank you for the very detailed reply.

I wasn't aware of many of these issues in the deeper technical aspects.

I have personally very limited experience of quality (as opposed to Makro) bikes. I am a relatively new cyclist (going on five years now) and have personally only owned bikes with disc brakes – both mountain, road and gravel. I have used them quite a lot in the wet as well and been very impressed with how they work in the wet.

The rubbing issue is something that occasionally drives me a little bit nuts. I seem to spend a fair bit of time adjusting things and checking things out to make sure they don't rub whenever changing brake pads or swapping wheels out et cetera. but I seem to always be able to get it to a "no rub" point eventually. 

For what it is worthwhile also always mindful about overheating brake systems, whether in a car on a long steep downhill with a lot of weight in it or on a bicycle. I seen thus far at least have had limited issues with brake discs warping. Although I do notice that some of them do not have an entirely perfect run out. I may yet acquire more one of those brake disc adjustment tools.

I would have thought that rubbing is an excessively bad idea. I do know that on motorised machines, rubbing brakes – with a disc or drum –can eventually lock up as things expand et cetera. Depending upon circumstances it can be more than merely inconvenient.

My one experience with riding a quality rim brake bike is my wife's Bianchi C2C with Campag parts. It is a very nice bike and I was really surprised at how much more comfortable it is than my Emonda but I was very disappointed by the brakes and how much lever force was required to achieve an equivalent level of braking. But I gather from your post that that may be a function of brake pad and rim component quality. I also cannot say that I have ridden a quality rim brake bike in the wet.

I used to disc brakes . I have been using them as long as I have used tubeless tyres I.e around 22years. The maintenance used to be lekker, now not so much due to time constraints. I leave that to my local bikes shops at bike park or CE cycles or Williams.

disc brakes , because they’re hydraulic can offer a higher leverage ratio which is nice but also means reduced feel and modulation. Modulation is a very nice thing to have in wet conditions. Your hands won’t be as tired after a long descent though. However the rider has to learn to modulate these in the wet.

gravel bikes are more like a Mtb in terms of speed so it’s not directly comparable to a road bike in a peloton hurtling along at 50km/hr ( enter the gravel guy who rides in the A bunch fun rides) on 28C tyres. Gravel bikes have more rubber on the ground more tyre squish to absorb the braking forces before the tyre loses traction. A road bike at speed on a wet road on  narrow slick  tyres isn’t the same. Much much more finesse is required to prevent lock ups.

 

 

[MudLark]

5 minutes ago, DieselnDust said:

A road bike at speed on a wet road on  narrow slick  tyres isn’t the same. Much much more finesse is required to prevent lock ups.

Gotcha!