Carrying while cycling

[Bike Dewing]

11 hours ago, Mamil said:

.... And then there's what happens after you've shot the joker who held you up for your bike and he's lying there in a pool of blood and the blue lights are arriving and instead of signing your affidavit and waiting for your case number to pass on to insurance you're answering questions about why you've killed someone.

To me it sounds like a good way to make a terrible situation even worse.

Of course if there criminal is intent on making it a you or me fight then a person would wish to be armed and that can and does happen but on balance of probabilities I believe that having a gun will skew likely outcomes towards the catastrophic

Not everyone is emotionally equipped to take a life, even in self defense.. it’s a massive responsibility.. includes dealing with the admin of doing so.. 👍🏻

[Steven421]

I carry when me and the wife is out in the sticks. When we hit the road and we are in group (+- 15 riders) I will not because you are less likely to be a target. Remember, they want easy money !!!

I have attended many SD courses covering countless scenarios one can land up in. A GUN IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED TO DE-ESCALATE A SITUATION. If your life, or that of a third party, is threatened then any force can be used to defend that life. Lethal force is not permitted to defend property under SA law, but the law is very clear when it comes to protecting life in a life-threatening situation.

You need to be prepared both physically and mentally for eventualities. There are many good instructors in SA that can assist with all physical aspects in self/private defence situation to always ensure you remain within the laws, but only you can prepare yourself on the mental level.       

[Ncayi]

13 hours ago, Sandro said:

Too much of a liability for me personally. If they even suspect you may have a gun your chances of getting away unharmed are probably zero and the bike becomes a distant second and the gun first prize for them. I have to ask myself what are the odds of me needing to use that gun and successfuly using it, versus it being used on me or taken. On the other hand I completely uderstand anyone feeling they need to carry one in this day and age.

This is wisdom!

A gun is more valuable to criminals than a bicycle. During a house robbery the first thing perps will typically ask for is the safe, as that is where people keep their guns. The rest of the loot is a bonus. Guns from civilians are clean and usually have no links to any other crimes. A clean gun is a valuable gun in the underworld.

Cyclists crash from just getting a water bottle or popping a gel while riding. Now you introduce a gun into the equation, the possibilites increase significantly.

I also have no issues with people carrying a gun when they ride their bikes. Just as long as I am not around.

Edited May 15 by Ncayi

[BaGearA]

1 hour ago, Bichael Dewing said:

Do you doubt you could de escalate with a gun as you are now.? Would you be more comfortable if there was a legit firearms self defense course and if you trained and were proficient with a gun.? Or would you not even consider going down that road..?

If the perp pulls a gun I don't think i could talk him down while pulling my own gun.

 

I think there's merit to being trained but I recently joined a kickboxing gym closer to where i moved( they also do self defense an much other ) after the first session i already had reservations cause they were not teaching the right techniques and virtually no passive defense. I left a week later after stopping their top guy in sparring ( I'm barely an amateur) I believe this has put me in a way better position than what people would be that do 10 of these self defense courses.

 

I would train guns for fun or to be able to hunt with different weapons, not with the idea of pointing it and hoping i leave the interaction alive.

[Bike Dewing]

39 minutes ago, Steven421 said:

I carry when me and the wife is out in the sticks. When we hit the road and we are in group (+- 15 riders) I will not because you are less likely to be a target. Remember, they want easy money !!!

I have attended many SD courses covering countless scenarios one can land up in. A GUN IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED TO DE-ESCALATE A SITUATION. If your life, or that of a third party, is threatened then any force can be used to defend that life. Lethal force is not permitted to defend property under SA law, but the law is very clear when it comes to protecting life in a life-threatening situation.

You need to be prepared both physically and mentally for eventualities. There are many good instructors in SA that can assist with all physical aspects in self/private defence situation to always ensure you remain within the laws, but only you can prepare yourself on the mental level.       

Absolutely correct.. the FCA is very specific in what can justify lethal force.. 

taking a life should never be taken for granted, whether it’s war, self defense, or otherwise.. 

it can de escalate though, that I don’t agree with you, I’ve seen plenty guns pulled on knife wielding assailants and those okes drop the knife and f&@k off quick sticks at the sight of a gun.. and even quicker when a round is fired..

[dave303e]

12 hours ago, Mamil said:

.... And then there's what happens after you've shot the joker who held you up for your bike and he's lying there in a pool of blood and the blue lights are arriving and instead of signing your affidavit and waiting for your case number to pass on to insurance you're answering questions about why you've killed someone.

To me it sounds like a good way to make a terrible situation even worse.

Of course if there criminal is intent on making it a you or me fight then a person would wish to be armed and that can and does happen but on balance of probabilities I believe that having a gun will skew likely outcomes towards the catastrophic

You need to be 100% certain where you stand legally before going for your weapon, never mind before you pull that trigger. But if you have been doing your training and thinking things through and understand your laws(not just learn them enough to pass the test). You need them verbatim. You will pull the trigger, you will phone the officials and you will phone your legal advisor and the insurer to pay that legal advisor. But you will be alive to manage that. You will not be the one climbing in the ambulance and that is the main benefit.

12 hours ago, RobertWhitehead said:

Here's my opinion: 

If you have any hesitation about taking a life / cause harm, then you should not have the means to do so. A firearm / knife / baton / self-defense course all have one intended outcome and that is to neutralize the threat.

You will have to either match the threat level (gun with gun, knife with knife, etc.) or submit to the threat. Either way, the perp woke up that morning not worrying about if he / she will be home for dinner. 

There is a saying don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Criminals don't ring you up to tell you what they bringing. So bring the best you have. These self defense pepper balls, batons and knives are more dangerous than guns. They will escalate the situation with a much lower chance of winning.

13 hours ago, Sandro said:

Too much of a liability for me personally. If they even suspect you may have a gun your chances of getting away unharmed are probably zero and the bike becomes a distant second and the gun first prize for them. I have to ask myself what are the odds of me needing to use that gun and successfuly using it, versus it being used on me or taken. On the other hand I completely uderstand anyone feeling they need to carry one in this day and age.

No one should know you have a gun. Grey man concept for me. I can talk here relatively anonymously. But the staff on the farm don't know I carry, In fact my parents haven't realised even though I see them weekly. No one must know about it until you need to use it. That is why it is tricky in tight cycling gear. Hard to hide the gun from printing. 

It absolutely irritates the daylights out of me when I see people in public with a 9mm or 45 on the hip loud and proud. Those are targets.

1 hour ago, Bichael Dewing said:

Do you doubt you could de escalate with a gun as you are now.? Would you be more comfortable if there was a legit firearms self defense course and if you trained and were proficient with a gun.? Or would you not even consider going down that road..?

Training is key. See too many people blowing loads of cash on optics and lasers and lights instead of ploughing that cash into ammo at the range.

1 hour ago, Bichael Dewing said:

Not everyone is emotionally equipped to take a life, even in self defense.. it’s a massive responsibility.. includes dealing with the admin of doing so.. 👍🏻

It is an interesting one. We have a farm swap set up. If we need an animal euthanized another farmers comes to do it. I go to sort their animals out. So the staff don't think we have weapons on site.

The fist few times you do it, it is a little emotional. Especially a cute cow and you walk right up to it, look it in the eye and end the pain. But after a few times it does get easier and easier. You do desensitize yourself very quickly. I had to put down a donkey a few weeks back and if I had to do that one the first time it would have wrecked me emotionally. Now it was not too bad. But I think going from nothing to a human would put a lot of people in a very dark place after the fact.

4 minutes ago, Ncayi said:

This is wisdom!

A gun is more valuable to criminals than a bicycle. Durind a house robbery the first thing perps will ask for is a gun before focusing on any other loot. Cyclists crash from just getting a water bottle or popping a gel while riding. Now you introduce a gun into the equation, the possibilites increase significantly.

I also have no issues with people carrying a gun when the ride their bikes. Just as long as I am not around.

That is why no one should know you have it. If they know what they doing you will not know someone you are riding with is carrying. Neither will the bike jackers.
I would be more concerned with people carrying less lethal options like knives and batons.

3 minutes ago, BaGearA said:

If the perp pulls a gun I don't think i could talk him down while pulling my own gun.

 

I think there's merit to being trained but I recently joined a kickboxing gym closer to where i moved( they also do self defense an much other ) after the first session i already had reservations cause they were not teaching the right techniques and virtually no passive defense. I left a week later after stopping their top guy in sparring ( I'm barely an amateur) I believe this has put me in a way better position than what people would be that do 10 of these self defense courses.

 

I would train guns for fun or to be able to hunt with different weapons, not with the idea of pointing it and hoping i leave the interaction alive.

If the perp pulls the gun on you it is too late for talking. They didn't bring a gun to talk, neither should you.

Honestly training with guns is a heck of a lot of fun. I get a lot didn't enjoy it due to Army service, but for some of us it is just relaxing. For me to pop into the range after a stressful work day is a treat, you quickly forget work and get home relaxed. I have signed up for a full year of training with a monthly course and honestly I am super excited to learn the various aspects.

The mrs is thankfully supportive so I have an ammo budget each month for playing and training on the 9mm. It has no effect on the hunting ammo budget. But training is super super important. Like riding a bike, you can't do nothing for months and expect to klap a big technical ride. You need to stay bike fit and if you carrying you need to stay gun fit and alert.

[Bike Dewing]

36 minutes ago, BaGearA said:

If the perp pulls a gun I don't think i could talk him down while pulling my own gun.

 

I think there's merit to being trained but I recently joined a kickboxing gym closer to where i moved( they also do self defense an much other ) after the first session i already had reservations cause they were not teaching the right techniques and virtually no passive defense. I left a week later after stopping their top guy in sparring ( I'm barely an amateur) I believe this has put me in a way better position than what people would be that do 10 of these self defense courses.

 

I would train guns for fun or to be able to hunt with different weapons, not with the idea of pointing it and hoping i leave the interaction alive.

Hence i said I haven’t vetted or attended that course being advertised.. lots of martial arts or self defense gyms are a joke in reality.. I’m just interested in people’s thoughts on it..

[Steven421]

10 minutes ago, Bichael Dewing said:

Absolutely correct.. the FCA is very specific in what can justify lethal force.. 

taking a life should never be taken for granted, whether it’s war, self defense, or otherwise.. 

it can de escalate though, that I don’t agree with you, I’ve seen plenty guns pulled on knife wielding assailants and those okes drop the knife and f&@k off quick sticks at the sight of a gun.. and even quicker when a round is fired..

Sorry, I agree. Let me rephrase (trying my best English here ) , A gun (or any weapon for that case) primary function should not be to de escalate. If you draw and they run, you win, if they advance on you and you fire, you win. But I think you get my point here...  

[Mook]

9 minutes ago, dave303e said:

You need to be 100% certain where you stand legally before going for your weapon, never mind before you pull that trigger. But if you have been doing your training and thinking things through and understand your laws(not just learn them enough to pass the test). You need them verbatim. You will pull the trigger, you will phone the officials and you will phone your legal advisor and the insurer to pay that legal advisor. But you will be alive to manage that. You will not be the one climbing in the ambulance and that is the main benefit.

There is a saying don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Criminals don't ring you up to tell you what they bringing. So bring the best you have. These self defense pepper balls, batons and knives are more dangerous than guns. They will escalate the situation with a much lower chance of winning.

No one should know you have a gun. Grey man concept for me. I can talk here relatively anonymously. But the staff on the farm don't know I carry, In fact my parents haven't realised even though I see them weekly. No one must know about it until you need to use it. That is why it is tricky in tight cycling gear. Hard to hide the gun from printing. 

It absolutely irritates the daylights out of me when I see people in public with a 9mm or 45 on the hip loud and proud. Those are targets.

Training is key. See too many people blowing loads of cash on optics and lasers and lights instead of ploughing that cash into ammo at the range.

It is an interesting one. We have a farm swap set up. If we need an animal euthanized another farmers comes to do it. I go to sort their animals out. So the staff don't think we have weapons on site.

The fist few times you do it, it is a little emotional. Especially a cute cow and you walk right up to it, look it in the eye and end the pain. But after a few times it does get easier and easier. You do desensitize yourself very quickly. I had to put down a donkey a few weeks back and if I had to do that one the first time it would have wrecked me emotionally. Now it was not too bad. But I think going from nothing to a human would put a lot of people in a very dark place after the fact.

That is why no one should know you have it. If they know what they doing you will not know someone you are riding with is carrying. Neither will the bike jackers.
I would be more concerned with people carrying less lethal options like knives and batons.

If the perp pulls the gun on you it is too late for talking. They didn't bring a gun to talk, neither should you.

Honestly training with guns is a heck of a lot of fun. I get a lot didn't enjoy it due to Army service, but for some of us it is just relaxing. For me to pop into the range after a stressful work day is a treat, you quickly forget work and get home relaxed. I have signed up for a full year of training with a monthly course and honestly I am super excited to learn the various aspects.

The mrs is thankfully supportive so I have an ammo budget each month for playing and training on the 9mm. It has no effect on the hunting ammo budget. But training is super super important. Like riding a bike, you can't do nothing for months and expect to klap a big technical ride. You need to stay bike fit and if you carrying you need to stay gun fit and alert.

You end your essay with the key in the current SA scenario. Owning a gun and firing hundreds of rounds in training costs the type of cash that I simply do not have. I do own firearms, yet I do not have the money to spend hours shooting.

The risk of carrying a firearm on the bike is not worth the value of the bike and mobile phone. Cyclists are most likely to be killed by motorists, not opportunistic thieves. 

Hand over your bike and live to tell the tale, rather than lose your life, or health, trying to prove a point.

Remember that, in SA, a criminal's human rights weigh 50x more than the victim's. Yes, a dead thieve cannot testify against you, but you will be screwed for the rest of your life having popped him in the head for taking your bike.

My 2 cents' worth

[Bike Dewing]

7 minutes ago, Mook said:

You end your essay with the key in the current SA scenario. Owning a gun and firing hundreds of rounds in training costs the type of cash that I simply do not have. I do own firearms, yet I do not have the money to spend hours shooting.

The risk of carrying a firearm on the bike is not worth the value of the bike and mobile phone. Cyclists are most likely to be killed by motorists, not opportunistic thieves. 

Hand over your bike and live to tell the tale, rather than lose your life, or health, trying to prove a point.

Remember that, in SA, a criminal's human rights weigh 50x more than the victim's. Yes, a dead thieve cannot testify against you, but you will be screwed for the rest of your life having popped him in the head for taking your bike.

My 2 cents' worth

I have found myself shooting a lot less because of the price of ammo.. I’m not nearly as proficient as I was a couple years ago.. yes, it’s a perishable skill to anyone wondering.. that and other factors has me not carrying a gun at all at the moment.. 😭

[dave303e]

5 minutes ago, Bichael Dewing said:

I have found myself shooting a lot less because of the price of ammo.. I’m not nearly as proficient as I was a couple years ago.. yes, it’s a perishable skill to anyone wondering.. that and other factors has me not carrying a gun at all at the moment.. 😭

Even reloads are barely affordable to be honest. Unfortunately we don't have a security company with armed response in our area. So I can justify that budget for not paying for armed response into my own training and ammo for it. But ya the costs are astronomical.

We were at the range last weekend and someone walked in and bought 800 rounds for him and his sons to shoot for the morning. I think half the people in the gun store were asking if he wanted to adopt them as children...

[The Ouzo]

the other important factor to take into account is that many of these attacks happen by surprise, so very little to no time to pull any sort of weapon out.

[Bike Dewing]

11 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

the other important factor to take into account is that many of these attacks happen by surprise, so very little to no time to pull any sort of weapon out.

So this is a whole other argument as to whether a martial art is essential for close quarter combat in a gunfight.. what a lot don’t realize that if the perp is too close to you you’re FA is useless unless you are really good retention shooting and close quarter fighting.. 

that’s when guns get taken off you and used against you.. keeping a good amount but not too much distance, it’s a skill in itself, and if the perp breaks that distance shots get fired.. if you understand what I’m saying..👍🏻

[Bike Dewing]

16 minutes ago, dave303e said:

Even reloads are barely affordable to be honest. Unfortunately we don't have a security company with armed response in our area. So I can justify that budget for not paying for armed response into my own training and ammo for it. But ya the costs are astronomical.

We were at the range last weekend and someone walked in and bought 800 rounds for him and his sons to shoot for the morning. I think half the people in the gun store were asking if he wanted to adopt them as children...

And if you don’t already have a reloading setup it’s thousands of rands and hours of research and testing to get the mix right.. 

I don’t have the money to outlay starting reloading.. 

[Mojoman]

9 minutes ago, Bichael Dewing said:

So this is a whole other argument as to whether a martial art is essential for close quarter combat in a gunfight.. what a lot don’t realize that if the perp is too close to you you’re FA is useless unless you are really good retention shooting and close quarter fighting.. 

that’s when guns get taken off you and used against you.. keeping a good amount but not too much distance, it’s a skill in itself, and if the perp breaks that distance shots get fired.. if you understand what I’m saying..👍🏻

Situational awareness is crucial as well....As much as you can...I feel that I might be in a better position riding on my own then in a group where people are always chatting and mucking about and not really paying attention to whats going on around them. I think you get a bit of a false sense of security in a group as well...

Im also in an area where I find endless snares so Im always keeping my eyes open when out and about...Pro tip here are bicycle cable cutters...makes easy work of snares. Normal pliers are crap.

Anyway, its not a great way to live but I aint quitting riding either!

 

Edited May 15 by Mojoman

[Mojoman]

24 minutes ago, The Ouzo said:

the other important factor to take into account is that many of these attacks happen by surprise, so very little to no time to pull any sort of weapon out.

Absolutely, its pretty easy to push someone off a bike from the side, especially if you are clipped in.

Edited May 15 by Mojoman