Using 32GI with GU?

[bikemonster]

...If you look at the average man through an entire year he could pump easily more than a ton of sugar into his body without realizing it...

 

More than a ton?

 

More than 2.7kg of sugar a day?

 

I'm not on a crusade against your product, and like others, I've enjoyed reading what you have to say, but this particular stat just does not stack up.

 

As I'm now participating in this thread, let me ask a question: I train on a watered down version of Game sports drink. Largely because it's cheap and pleasant tasting. As it's watered down, I guess it's a hypotonic solution. I realise that hyper/iso/hypo-tonic is a different concept to glycaemic index, but how does my approach differ, physiologically, from using 32GI?

 

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere on the Hub.

[MDW]

Lol the ton was an expression really to emphasise sugar abuse, I deal with families and nutrition and you will be surprised at the amount of bad sugar on average taken in on a daily basis from breakfast to sleep time anyway will respond to your question when back at the office, all the best M

[MDW]

More than a ton?

 

More than 2.7kg of sugar a day?

 

I'm not on a crusade against your product, and like others, I've enjoyed reading what you have to say, but this particular stat just does not stack up.

 

As I'm now participating in this thread, let me ask a question: I train on a watered down version of Game sports drink. Largely because it's cheap and pleasant tasting. As it's watered down, I guess it's a hypotonic solution. I realise that hyper/iso/hypo-tonic is a different concept to glycaemic index, but how does my approach differ, physiologically, from using 32GI?

 

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere on the Hub.

Ok Bike Monster, back in the office,

 

Well to put it simply and others can share their opinion its an interesting debate, but the just of it is,

 

An Isotonic drink is more balanced in electrolytes, and has a level of both this and carbohydrates which provide the replacement of lost fluids caused by sweating, this has always been the drink of choice for most athletes.

 

Hypotonic drinks on the other hand, have a very low level of carbohydrate, but assist with fluid replacement not a great shoice for an endurance sport such as cycling or running, probably better for motor car racing.

 

Hypertonic drinks of course contain usually a much higher level of carbohydrate and I would say is great as a recovery drink, but some do tend to use it during sport.

 

Not sure, what you consider 32Gi to be but its definitely Isotonic range. As far as electrolyte levels go we use the standard hydration amounts, which you would find in say a rehydrate etc.

 

Drinks aside, what we tend to see a lot in the industry is athletes speaking highly of energy drinks and cramping causes. BUT, I hate to break it and the pro's will tell you as well the main reason for this is

1. Racing at an intensity you are not training at, and this does not mean hard pace only, it could mean a lower pace than training at, in other words utilizing muscles you would not normally utilize during training.

2. Over hydration, taking in too much liquid can cause the effect of cramping by diluting your electrolyte levels.

 

Now here is an interesting topic for debate, and you should see Dr Ross Tuckers research on this, but they have shown sweat to be hypotonic. Which is very interesting, it means that the more you sweat the more concentrated your sodium and potassium levels become because u r losing more liquid than electrolytes, meaning your electrolyte levels are concentrated and not diluted, its a fascinating study you should have a read. http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-1-theories-and.html

 

I am not sure any of this answers your questions, but if you are watering down your Game chances are if you are taking in more liquid than balanced electrolytes, I feel you are putting yourself out there to cramping susceptibility, what kind of levels does Game have.

 

all the best

 

Mark

[Topwine]

 

As I'm now participating in this thread, let me ask a question: I train on a watered down version of Game sports drink. Largely because it's cheap and pleasant tasting. As it's watered down, I guess it's a hypotonic solution. I realise that hyper/iso/hypo-tonic is a different concept to glycaemic index, but how does my approach differ, physiologically, from using 32GI?

 

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere on the Hub.

 

Hi Bikemonster

 

I also train on Game for the same reasons as you, and while Mark and I have debated this issue via private mail and largely agree, lets see what he has to say later. In the mean time, I'll give my thinking and understanding of this matter Physiologically. I invite anyone to differ with my understanding and to contribute to my knowledge!

 

Your body can use 3 sources of energy:

 

1. Carbohydrates (in various forms, 1.1 monosaccharides ie glucose, fructose and galactose, 1.2, disaccharides, example(sucrose or sugar) which are made up out of 1 molecule each of glucose and fructose)and 1.3 polisaccharides, further more complex carbs for example starch.

 

It is important to note that the body can only absorb simple sugars like glucose. The other forms have to be broken down by the body's digestive system into glucose, fructose and galactose first, before it becomes useful to the body cells.

 

2. Proteins

 

Proteins can be broken down into glucose to feed your muscles in the absense of enough carbs. This is of course undesirable for most athletes trying to get stronger.

 

3. Fats

 

Fats is an important source of energy for the body, but it is NOT glucose ! Fats are broken down into fatty acids and gliserol and then further converted into energy source for the cells and muscles.

 

However, certain body cells can ONLY USE GLUCOSE as energy source, like the Brain and red blood cells as examples. This is important, because that is why you cannot only use fats as energy source , even though 1g of fat has 37.8 kJ of energy compared to 16.8 kJ of 1g carbs. Secondly, fats are only burned efficiently if burned together with a small amount of glucose.

 

So to summarise:

 

You need glucose and fats as energy source. Each individual is different and the min amount of glucose needed will vary according to athletic condition, cell genetics , exercise intensity, duration etc. This is a complex field which probably can only be approximated by personal experience and training.

 

As Mark says the object is obviously to train the body to burn more fat for energy and training increases this effeciency of the body. However, there is a min amount of glucose needed for the activity and intensity levels required.

 

This brings us to the sources of this glucose, which is probably the centre of this debate. Over the course of your activity or event you can either eat food, or drink a sports drink, or do both. Mark's product, 32GI, has a GI of 32, which incidently is the same as fructose ! This means the glucose equivalent in the product will be released in the blood stream over a longer period compared to sucrose and glucose based products like our GAME for instance. This does not make GAME or any other sucrose (dextrose) product inferior or bad.

 

Mark is advocating that for most people consuming high GI sports drinks will lead to a spike in blood glucose levels, causing an insulin response which will lead to reduced fat burn and thus reduced energy production and the dreaded bonk. This is however not proved in independent studies and must be viewed in terms of who are making these claims.

 

For a very good explanation of the Glycemic index concept and how it relates to performance in endurance events, see the link here, http://www.cptips.com/gi.htm

 

To quote,

 

"Some athletes and coaches have speculated that altering the GI of the training diet or pre race meal might influence their performance with a low GI pre race meal conferring an advantage (less insulin surge and blood sugars remaining elevated over a longer period of time post meal). However, controlled studies have failed to demonstrate any advantages of a low compared to a high GI pre-race meal."

 

So yes, I also use Game as a cheap source of glucose and I also use Milo as a cheap and tasty recovery drink ! But I think I can probably make my very own sports drink even cheaper, because Game still costs over R40/kg and simple sugar costs R7 kg ! 32GI costs way over R200 /kg ! You pay for the luxury of being able to buy it easily and not having to do your own blending.

[bikemonster]

Cramping? Now we're off on a different topic, but it's all interesting.

 

When last I tried to read around the topic of cramping, there seemed to be some doubt out there about what is acshly going on when a person cramps. Not sure if that's true, or if it has changed since, but in my experience (alarm bells: anecdotal evidence, survey size = 1) unless I train at the kind intensity and distance that I intend to race at, I am susceptible to cramp. I am not very susceptible to cramp, and it's only been an issue for me when I have trained with too-short rides, even if I have done plenty of them, or too-gentle rides, even if they have been long rides.

 

Some more detail, which I left out, was that I use slightly watery Game for my shorter (read 1-2 hour) training rides, and over those distances, cramping is not an issue. The only reason I don't use water for those short rides is that if I train hard, I sometimes get back feeling "flat". To my mind, the watered down Game is providing enough carbohydrate to keep me going. Psychological? Possibly, but it's a routine that I've found works for me.

 

My approach has been to "save" the energy gels for race days. Partly because I'm a tight-wad and partly because I figure if I put something extra in the tank on race days, I will be able to go a little bit faster than I do when I'm training. On long (2-4 hour) training rides I use USN powdered jungle juice and eat a banana or two.

 

Getting back to your comments re: training the body to utilise fat resources, my experience (see alarm bells above) gels with what you say. Over the summer, as I get fitter, I find I am better able to ride longer with less on the bike refuelling.

[MDW]

Hi Bikemonster

 

I also train on Game for the same reasons as you, and while Mark and I have debated this issue via private mail and largely agree, lets see what he has to say later. In the mean time, I'll give my thinking and understanding of this matter Physiologically. I invite anyone to differ with my understanding and to contribute to my knowledge!

 

Your body can use 3 sources of energy:

 

1. Carbohydrates (in various forms, 1.1 monosaccharides ie glucose, fructose and galactose, 1.2, disaccharides, example(sucrose or sugar) which are made up out of 1 molecule each of glucose and fructose)and 1.3 polisaccharides, further more complex carbs for example starch.

 

It is important to note that the body can only absorb simple sugars like glucose. The other forms have to be broken down by the body's digestive system into glucose, fructose and galactose first, before it becomes useful to the body cells.

 

2. Proteins

 

Proteins can be broken down into glucose to feed your muscles in the absense of enough carbs. This is of course undesirable for most athletes trying to get stronger.

 

3. Fats

 

Fats is an important source of energy for the body, but it is NOT glucose ! Fats are broken down into fatty acids and gliserol and then further converted into energy source for the cells and muscles.

 

However, certain body cells can ONLY USE GLUCOSE as energy source, like the Brain and red blood cells as examples. This is important, because that is why you cannot only use fats as energy source , even though 1g of fat has 37.8 kJ of energy compared to 16.8 kJ of 1g carbs. Secondly, fats are only burned efficiently if burned together with a small amount of glucose.

 

So to summarise:

 

You need glucose and fats as energy source. Each individual is different and the min amount of glucose needed will vary according to athletic condition, cell genetics , exercise intensity, duration etc. This is a complex field which probably can only be approximated by personal experience and training.

 

As Mark says the object is obviously to train the body to burn more fat for energy and training increases this effeciency of the body. However, there is a min amount of glucose needed for the activity and intensity levels required.

 

This brings us to the sources of this glucose, which is probably the centre of this debate. Over the course of your activity or event you can either eat food, or drink a sports drink, or do both. Mark's product, 32GI, has a GI of 32, which incidently is the same as fructose ! This means the glucose equivalent in the product will be released in the blood stream over a longer period compared to sucrose and glucose based products like our GAME for instance. This does not make GAME or any other sucrose (dextrose) product inferior or bad.

 

Mark is advocating that for most people consuming high GI sports drinks will lead to a spike in blood glucose levels, causing an insulin response which will lead to reduced fat burn and thus reduced energy production and the dreaded bonk. This is however not proved in independent studies and must be viewed in terms of who are making these claims.

 

For a very good explanation of the Glycemic index concept and how it relates to performance in endurance events, see the link here, http://www.cptips.com/gi.htm

 

To quote,

 

"Some athletes and coaches have speculated that altering the GI of the training diet or pre race meal might influence their performance with a low GI pre race meal conferring an advantage (less insulin surge and blood sugars remaining elevated over a longer period of time post meal). However, controlled studies have failed to demonstrate any advantages of a low compared to a high GI pre-race meal."

 

So yes, I also use Game as a cheap source of glucose and I also use Milo as a cheap and tasty recovery drink ! But I think I can probably make my very own sports drink even cheaper, because Game still costs over R40/kg and simple sugar costs R7 kg ! 32GI costs way over R200 /kg ! You pay for the luxury of being able to buy it easily and not having to do your own blending.

 

Hi Topwine good to see you around again ;-)

 

I agree with a lot of what has been said above, I would like to just add a few cents worth, LOL, totally agree with everything, but there are some issues,

 

On the aspect of low GI pre-race or training, I need to stand firm, in that the results we alone have seen from our pro-athletes switching to low GI sources has proven itself. We had 4 ultra marathon records broken this year, and aside from training, the nutrition became very very strict, these athletes have been able to really give a high level of performance on a very small amount of glucose, and what we have seen is that their training regimen has been similar to previous years, but their nutrition has changed quite a lot, there are many articles and research in favour of low GI, but I guess again we all need to see what works for us, but from a personal level, we have seen major differences in all our athletes and children when low GI is introduced into their diets.

 

As for fructose the GI actually ranges between 12-25 depending where it comes from, but 19 is the standard, 32 is a fair bit higher on the index. Also fructose can not be used for energy, it does not peak, it tapers off immediately, taking in fructose as a source of energy will fatigue u very quickly in an endurance event.

 

all the best

M

[Thor Buttox]

Cramping? Now we're off on a different topic, but it's all interesting.

 

When last I tried to read around the topic of cramping, there seemed to be some doubt out there about what is acshly going on when a person cramps. Not sure if that's true, or if it has changed since, but in my experience (alarm bells: anecdotal evidence, survey size = 1) unless I train at the kind intensity and distance that I intend to race at, I am susceptible to cramp. I am not very susceptible to cramp, and it's only been an issue for me when I have trained with too-short rides, even if I have done plenty of them, or too-gentle rides, even if they have been long rides.

 

Totally agree with the training bit... Mark has corresponded with me last week about having a rather bad experience and I've been trying to do things right in the last week. Lost 2kg's in the process which hasn't harmed anything. But I'm gonna keep on with the 32GI until my sample group of 1 is satisfied or not!

 

In the past, I've never battled cramp until about 3-to 3.5 hours into a hard ride, but this year, oh-vey... maybe, 2 hours in I'm all over the place. I think a lot of that may be down to strength deficiencies in the various muscle groups because I always start cramping in the same areas and it follows the same path through the muscle groups.

 

Might not be nutrition related? Anyone agree/disagree?

[MDW]

Cramping? Now we're off on a different topic, but it's all interesting.

 

When last I tried to read around the topic of cramping, there seemed to be some doubt out there about what is acshly going on when a person cramps. Not sure if that's true, or if it has changed since, but in my experience (alarm bells: anecdotal evidence, survey size = 1) unless I train at the kind intensity and distance that I intend to race at, I am susceptible to cramp. I am not very susceptible to cramp, and it's only been an issue for me when I have trained with too-short rides, even if I have done plenty of them, or too-gentle rides, even if they have been long rides.

 

Some more detail, which I left out, was that I use slightly watery Game for my shorter (read 1-2 hour) training rides, and over those distances, cramping is not an issue. The only reason I don't use water for those short rides is that if I train hard, I sometimes get back feeling "flat". To my mind, the watered down Game is providing enough carbohydrate to keep me going. Psychological? Possibly, but it's a routine that I've found works for me.

 

My approach has been to "save" the energy gels for race days. Partly because I'm a tight-wad and partly because I figure if I put something extra in the tank on race days, I will be able to go a little bit faster than I do when I'm training. On long (2-4 hour) training rides I use USN powdered jungle juice and eat a banana or two.

 

Getting back to your comments re: training the body to utilise fat resources, my experience (see alarm bells above) gels with what you say. Over the summer, as I get fitter, I find I am better able to ride longer with less on the bike refuelling.

Bikemonster, you play around with your nutrition which is great, the majority of people out there dont, they look to a product and say, out of box this will save me. You have gone and found the right amount of glucose balance for your particular level of training and fitness, even mentioning the different dilutions for short and long rides demonstrates that. As they say, it you feel it works for you and you are happy with it then no need to change.

 

I sometimes tend to forget about the times and distances that some people do, and I guess, level of fitness and endurance plays that part, and maybe I am extreme in some cases, but for me, I hate eating on my rides, I go out with 2 to 3 bottles of liquid, 32Gi in 2 of them maybe water in the 3rd or more 32Gi, and stay out for between 6-7 hours on my long rides. My shortest rides are 2 hours, and those are either 1 bottle of 32Gi or just a decent pre-training snack, like a slice of toast and jam, and then water only. Racing is a different story all together, but if you get to understand and know your body well, under different conditions you can find the right recipe that works for you, I guess that is really key.

Our drink is not just for pro-athletes or endurance sportsmen, its also for the average joe who wants an energy drink during the day without the fear of weight gain ;-) or for the parent who does not want their children bouncing off the wall, or for the diabetic who wants a stable supply, of energy without the dreaded spike.

 

all the best

 

M

[Topwine]

 

As for fructose the GI actually ranges between 12-25 depending where it comes from, but 19 is the standard, 32 is a fair bit higher on the index. Also fructose can not be used for energy, it does not peak, it tapers off immediately, taking in fructose as a source of energy will fatigue u very quickly in an endurance event.

 

all the best

M

 

Hi Mark

 

You are probably right on the GI index of Fructose being closer to 19 (even better !) but 1 source I saw had it at 32.

 

You are however not accurate by stating that fructose cannot be used for energy, as nearly all fructose is converted into glucose by the liver. Only a small amount of fructose is being used directed by some cells like sperm etc. Even the energy of 32GI is half glucose and half fructose, the same as sucrose.

[MDW]

Hi Mark

 

You are probably right on the GI index of Fructose being closer to 19 (even better !) but 1 source I saw had it at 32.

 

You are however not accurate by stating that fructose cannot be used for energy, as nearly all fructose is converted into glucose by the liver. Only a small amount of fructose is being used directed by some cells like sperm etc. Even the energy of 32GI is half glucose and half fructose, the same as sucrose.

Try it ;-), its extremely short lived, I am talking about specifically through exercise, it does not give u any sustainability, most companies actually use fructose to bring down the GI factor of a drink, combining it with a sucrose, or MD to lower the response, but the testing done on fructose alone in sport has not yielded good results, the graph tapers off suddenly with no real elevation in blood glucose.

I think fructose is better served as a sugar replacement, which I use it for, in food, baking etc.

 

One thing though is there is a lot of debate around fructose being a immune system inhibitor, this is something that is of concern but probably needs to be researched more thoroughly.

 

later

M

[Topwine]

the testing done on fructose alone in sport has not yielded good results, the graph tapers off suddenly with no real elevation in blood glucose.

I think fructose is better served as a sugar replacement, which I use it for, in food, baking etc.

 

later

M

 

I on the other hand was not referring to fructose on its own as regards to absorption rate. You are confusing the rate of absorption with the amount of available energy. Fructose CAN be used for energy, its energy does not get "lost". It just gets absorbed very slowly on its own, and also then have to be converted into glucose first by the liver before its available in the blood. Actually, fructose taken together with glucose, as is the case with sucrose, the absorption is much quicker.

 

Do you agree that even 32GI, when broken down by enzymes in the digestive system, also consists of 1 molecule of glucose for every molecule of fructose.

 

Another thing that I would like to know from you, is whether you guys add any extra fructose to Palatinose in your product to either sweeten the mixture or lower the GI index ?

[MDW]

I on the other hand was not referring to fructose on its own as regards to absorption rate. You are confusing the rate of absorption with the amount of available energy. Fructose CAN be used for energy, its energy does not get "lost". It just gets absorbed very slowly on its own, and also then have to be converted into glucose first by the liver before its available in the blood. Actually, fructose taken together with glucose, as is the case with sucrose, the absorption is much quicker.

 

Do you agree that even 32GI, when broken down by enzymes in the digestive system, also consists of 1 molecule of glucose for every molecule of fructose.

 

Another thing that I would like to know from you, is whether you guys add any extra fructose to Palatinose in your product to either sweeten the mixture or lower the GI index ?

I agree with you on that, what I meant was it does not get converted quick enough for use during an event. 32Gi is broken down into fructose and glucose yes 1000%, I can send u an interesting diagram on the digestive process if you wish regarding our product.

[riaanb]

Wow, this is getting technical, but interesting.

 

Mark, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge about nutrition. Can you recommend a good book or something that could be a guide to daily eating, including food types and recipes etc, for athletes?

 

You input is much appreciated.

[Part time Biker]

The bottom line to the whole discussion is that Lo GI and Hi GI don't complement each other. My suggestion is that you use 32GI with Redbar as your energy supplement for events. Both products are low GI(Redbar is arround 40 GI), therefore will give you a consistant energy level without spiking if used efficiently. Redbar will have their website up and runing soon and will have some articles that will answer the questions you are asking. If you want more info please e-mail me at chris@redbar.co.za

[Wobbles]

Hi Wobbles, I think u confused me as well LOL, you of course need to find what works for you. 32Gi is a low GI product whereas the others are high GI, and there is a huge difference between them. It really boils down nutrition, not just daily but pre and druing an event. You see when taking in a high GI substance such as GU or Cytomax as mentioned you put a load of readily available glucose into your blood stream, not all of this is taken up and the balance cast aside is basically stored as fat. I think the issue out there is except for a small % of people most dont know what the appropriate amount of glucose they need to take in, and most overload, everyone is unique so experimentation is key, but a lot of guys out there exercising are actually putting on weight as opposed to staying in shape due to not understanding their nutrition needs properly. 32Gi is very different, it does the opposite it only releases small amounts of glucose into the blood stream, and promotes fat store tapping for the balance, being able to tap your fat stores really means u r utilizing efficient fuel, but by putting any high GI substance into your body at all will totally nullify this process meaning you are solely dependent on the readily available glucose for energy. To be honest a lot of people are so dependent on energy drinks to put them through a session, but a lot of our athletes including myself can go easily 3-4hours at a medium intensity on water alone, and the only reason is that we have pushed the sugar aside and trained our bodies to be far more efficient at sparing glycogen and utilising our fat stores. Its the way we were created, and the way a bushman or aborigine would cross a desert for hours and hours without anything but water. Its for sure a healthier way of living and training. If you look at the average man through an entire year he could pump easily more than a ton of sugar into his body without realizing it, its just no the way we were meant to be, we have just become too accustomed to it. Thought this might be interesting to you, Lifestyles aside, can you tell me how long you went on the ride for?all the bestM

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply MDW. My rides are normally 3 to 3.5 hours long.

[MDW]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply MDW. My rides are normally 3 to 3.5 hours long.

Hi Wobbles, for 3-3.5 hours riding, you dont really need much fuel ;-), depending on the intensity of course. Typically for a 4 hour ride, I would have a decent low GI snack such 45-60 minutes before I go out, such as

- Low GI Toast, diabetic Jam and Sugar Free Peanut Butter, or Honey, or even a slightly ripe banana sliced on this.

Other options are Raw Oats, drizzle of honey and some banana or sliced apple.

Future Life Cereal

Pro-Nutro

 

I then take 2 x 500ml or 750ml bottles with depending on weather conditions, for hydration purposes, and 1 serving of 32Gi will see me through that, you can take 1 in each bottle if you are nervous, but thats plenty. Complete muscle glycogen depletion should not happen at all within the first 2 hours (debatable ;-) depending on the intensity you are riding at, but I would say that would be a perfectly fed ride.

 

If you want to train your body to be more efficient at utilizing its own and fed resources with time, I would recommend doing a lot of 1.5-2 hour rides on water alone, if they are early morning rides especially, you will see with time, what a difference it will make. These rides should not be of a very high intensity, but a moderate intensity.

 

all the best

 

M