Clinton1

Yip, that is was I was saying in the 29er/27.5 thread. The masses seem to have this desire to show off that they have the latest and will buy whatever the marketing gurus put out even when the actual advantage gained is minimal. I, for one, am quite happy to sit and wait for last years model to drop dramatically in price and snap it up. Far better than wasting your time in the second hand bike market trying to ensure you get a bargain and not a dud.

Yip, the pricing in a 2nd hand market should not just be about the value of the bike. The fact that the 2nd hand market is full of fraudsters should also reflect in the price of 2nd goods. I, as a buyer, am taking more of a chance buying 2nd hand so I should get a better rate for the increased risk I am taking on. I am also taking on the risk that there may in fact be a problem with the bike that has not been disclosed, not in every instance obviously but there are cases, so again the risk I am taking in this department should reflect in a lower price. Most 2nd goods are sold as is with no return policy. Factor all of this in and a 2nd bike should really be FAR cheaper than a new one. People unknowingly buying these 2nd bikes at inflated prices are creating an inflated market. Users on this forum who constantly send newbies to buy in this market are perpetuating it (I still always think it's because they have their own 2nd goods they are trying to sell...). The real deals are few and far between. Until people factor in the buyer risks when selling second hand I would avoid doing so.

This is why, as opposed to the regular advice given on here, I'll rather buy brand new old models from a dealer rather than browse for second hand "bargains". Every seller is out to make as much as he possibly can, obviously, but this will often mean an inflated price and an exaggeration of the "exceptional" condition the bike is in or the "limited" mileage it has done. New at least you know is new and you can easily compare prices to other new bikes of the same model.

Interesting that you use the iPad analogy as that is exactly the way I see this whole wheel size thing. Steve Jobs and co: "Hey, I know how we can make lots of money. Let's bring out a new iPad every year with minimal advantages over it's predecessors but market it vehemently and make the silly consumers out there feel inferior if they don't have the latest model". Ditto the bike manufacturers. People obviously weren't buying new bikes often enough for their liking so they just took a leaf out of the Apple book of sales and marketing and develop a new "must have" product every so often to help those who are too happy to part with their cash, to look cool and show off that they have the latest, to do so. It also reminds me of the camera megapixel battle and the computer processor speed battle. Give the masses a simple number to focus on and milk the sales from changes to this number.

Not sure if anyone else has shared this but WOW!

And I'll add my 5c seeing as though money is changing hands here.... it was my first time attending a WC XCO race and I can happily conclude that it was thrilling to watch. We moved around the course, first sitting at the amphitheatre watching the log section shown above, then moved onto the drop off steps, spent a bit of time at the rock garden and then made our way to the finish to see Burry come in. It was brilliant to watch. I was with guys who compete in the local Momentum Health XCO races here in KZN and we wanted to see these top guys take on the technical stuff. That is what it is all about. We don't want to watch them going around and around a flat smooth track. You want drama. If you wanted to ride that course afterwards there is always the chicken run option, or you could even hop off and walk it if the need arose. Hell, one of the SA guys in PMB did that everytime down the logs.

Your 10 year old needs to offer his services to some of those world cup participants who chose the chicken run (not always due to a log jam - pun unintended - on the log section), and more specifically to the one competitor crashed heavily at my feet at the base of that drop, or the many others who were within an inch of falling hard...

Ha ha, the self proclaimed oracle has spoken again! Funny guy.

Is that your best? Sad. Jeeptrack my foot! And not sure if I could possibly join you for a ride in CT. After all you have been to a skills clinic and I haven't. No possible way I could even think of riding with you!

Wow, I must be far more skilled than I thought. I have tackled almost every trail at Giba (I say almost every as I am sure there must be some I have missed) and I am yet to go on any skills course. And yes, most of those trails are comfortably completed without putting a foot down. But of course, I need to inform Jason that Giba is apparently full of jeep track only according to you. Will be news to him I think...

I edited my post once I realised this but clearly in your eagerness to get personal and just attack you failed to notice this. Understandable really. Buddy, I'm not an 18 year old that you can scare off with your insults. I have been around the block more than a few times. If you'd like to engage me on a subject feel free to do so but leave the petty, childish insults out. Thanks.

Well now, how interesting that you used this analogy. From my reading of the initial post, and many more referring to skills clinics, I cannot for one second see where the person referred to wanting to "race formula 1 cars"! I'm pretty much seeing this argument of yours playing straight into my hands, that someone starting out does not need "formula 1" training. Philosophy. Ah, I see. So I passed my driver's license on the road. This obviously means I really need to go on a special skills course if I venture to the Transkei and want to drive on the dirt roads there. Of course, you will be silly and take this further and compare this to rally racing. Hardly similar. Again it is a mountain biker trying to put their sport in the same extreme class as formula 1 and rally driving. How laughable. I'm not even going to be silly and venture into the fact that amateur track days and amateur rallies exist.... Ok, OP, apparently covie has declared himself the all knowing oracle on here so the verdict seems to be that you should not even worry about getting a bike but rather spend as much time studying skills and going on clinics. Actually riding a bike is clearly secondary to the benefits you will get from these. Good luck and start saving.

We have clearly gone beyond discussing the merits of skills training and are just trying to nitpick now. First the reference to lacking grey matter earlier and now this. 1. I prefer sweeping trails to jumps, not sure how this proves a point. 2. Jumping and motoring around are two different things in my books. I know many people with R25k bikes who will not jump them. You guys do realise you are not going to convince me to go and give some person, whose credentials are not proven, some money to teach me how to ride a bike. I have made plenty of acquaintances from my preferred method of just getting on my bike and riding who I can just as easily watch or ask questions if I so desire. Again I'll say, at risk of alienating a lot of users on here, that mountain bikers seem to have this immense desire to try and make their sport appear more extreme than it really is. Yes, some guys are doing extreme stuff but starting out on a bike on trails is hardly extreme!

Probably works for a living unlike some of us

Quite laughable that you state that as if it is an indisputable fact. At most it is your opinion. Your reference to brain matter really just shows how you now feel the need to resort to (not so subtle) insults in an attempt to force your opinion on others. As for your reference to pros, yes, you are totally right many of them do use technical coaches but you overlook the fact that the people you are advising are far from pros! Damn, the pros have psychological coaches, dieticians, publicists and managers.... best I get some of those too as they are clearly necessary for me to ride socially. So let's agree that we will continue to have differing opinions. You can put yours forward as fact if it makes you feel superior but I sure won't be paying my hard earned money across to someone whose credentials I probably don't even know. And I'll happily share this opinion with those that ask!

Paralysis through over analysis! Just get out there and ride and enjoy it. Bike riders seem to be big on making their sport appear so much more extreme than it really is. Back when I was 15, yes many years ago, we used to ride around on the farm in conditions far more daunting than most single track MTB parks put out nowadays. We did so on crappy old bikes too and barefoot. Now everyone seems to think you need to spend a fortune and get extensive training before you can ride a bike and tackle any route. I still call crap on this! Just hop on the bike, ride and enjoy! I surf too. If someone shows an interest in surfing I'll happily throw them a long board, paddle out on a small day and tell them to give it a go. While out there I'll obviously provide pointers and tips. They could of course pay for expensive surfing lessons up front but why not just get out there and give it a go. That's how I learnt to surf. That's how I learnt to mountain bike. Ahh....

The ones who get a sniff of a women on the internet and come rushing along panting are the ones who need to keep the testosterone down....

My advice.... DO NOT TAKE A LOAN FROM THE BANK TO BUY A BIKE! I bought a R4,500 bike in November and am still very happy with my purchase. I am fully aware that it does not have the top of the range fork, brakes, derailleurs, tyres etc etc etc etc but it more than serves it's purpose. I can ride the same trails that my fellow riders on their R25,000 bikes choose to ride. This may all be psychological but I also have the added advantage that when we do a ride, just for fitness, I know I am actually getting more out of it as I am carrying around a lot heavier bike and do not have all the latest goodies on it making every pedal stroke more efficient. Yes, those would be great if I was a racer but I'm not, I'm doing it for fitness and fun and my bike more than suffices. Stick with your budget and just get out there an enjoying riding.

That, in my opinion, is exactly the problem! Corporates start paying for teams to enter and then the poor man on the street is left unable to afford to enter and give these things a go. Like you say, for them it is peanuts and probably written off as marketing.

I always find it annoying when someone does this... I had already chosen not to respond as I realised it was a pointless back and forth discussion of no benefit to anyone else and then a knight in shining armour comes in a day later and plays hero. And it was in no way a thread hijack. The entire thread is about Vitality and whether it is a valuable offering, a marketing gimmick or crap.

OK, so it's settled then. Difficult to boil it down to a specific town but KZN is by far the mountain biking heaven of SA. Thanks for playing.

Of course we have come to excuse our less intelligent brothers for their repeated reference to their city as a town...

Surely that's a bit like asking which is the best surfing town in SA? Some will say Durban because of the choices and consistency, others will say J-Bay because of the epic Supertubes etc I am hardly an expert but Durban must surely be fairly high up on that list not based on actual parks in Durban but those in close proximity. You have Giba in Pinetown/Hillcrest (13km), Holla in Ballito (46km), Cascades inland (66km), Clearwater Trails in Port Edward (153km) as well as places like Karkloof and the Transkei on your doorstep.

These fads that people follow to squeeze the last bit of performance out of themselves, even when they are not professional athletes, sometimes makes me laugh. I have always been of the philosophy that I listen to my body. If it craves a big juicy steak I give it one. If it wants water, I drink it. Suppose I am just lucky in that I have never had an issue with weight. Or is it my approach to eating that has created this "luck"..... Over the years we have seen things being good for you and then all of a sudden they are not, or vice versa.

It is a bad trend. Those who conscientiously pay their way now will eventually start wondering why they should bother if so many others don't and soon no one will be paying and the park will not be sustainable.