Sit back and have a good........

[Canaris]

I will probably never be strong enough to stay with the Cyclelab and Bulk meat teams without some serious wheel sucking. This they know' date=' so as part of their tactics they will obviously shake me off by guttering (especially on the white line). This kitchen is to hot for me, so the they beat me even before the race is ridden. [/quote']

 

?

 

I haven't taken part in this thread because to me it is the same as the argument as to whether you should or shouldn't treat a robot as a 4-way stop at 04:00 in the morning.? This issue will be argued ad naseum on this forum.

 

?

 

What I can say though, is that I check the wind directions before a race, and I check the race route.? Tactically, Bulk Pack do NOT gutter on the white line side of the road (i.e. when the wind is from the left).? This is because it is often us that are doing the guttering, and quite frankly I don't really want to have the death of someone that is desparately trying to hang on the group on my hands.

 

?

 

This is not to say that I have not ever crossed the white line, I have, for many of the reasons that have been pointed out on this thread.? But we do discuss wind directions before a race, and we do not use guttering as a tactic when the wind is from the left.? An example of this was the Dome2Dome - there was a strong wind from the left on the Hekpoort road from Sterkfontein to Maropeng.? Marco vb rode the front very hard up that drag, but stayed to the left - not even up against the white line, the left shoulder of the road!? We had discussed this before the race, and we chose not to gutter there because of the danger.

 

?

 

The TCS boys kindly returned the favout and guttered us on the Tarlton road (when it was perfectly safe to do so).

 

 

 

I take note, and appreciate the real concern for other cyclists. (I just used the two strongest teams as examples) and yes, in my races I have rarely seen either team cross the white line- even when guttering with a left wind. However, even if no guttering occurs at the front, at the back the bunch does get blown across the white line and often into the bushes on the other side as well. I have to make a choice between:

 

1. get fitter and race at the front

 

2. get dropped

 

3. cross the white line.

 

 

 

so I get dropped often.

[bruce]

I take note' date=' and appreciate the real concern for other cyclists. (I just used the two strongest teams as examples) and yes, in my races I have rarely seen either team cross the white line- even when guttering with a left wind. However, even if no guttering occurs at the front, at the back the bunch does get blown across the white line and often into the bushes on the other side as well. I have to make a choice between:
1. get fitter and race at the front
2. get dropped
3. cross the white line.

so I get dropped often. [/quote']

 

Which is precisely why racing groups need rolling road closure.  Think about it, the goal of a racing group is to drop as many competitors as possible - improving chances of a result.  The goal of the open seeded group is to keep the bunch together, thereby enabling a better time for the race.  The two groups have completely different goals and tactics in a race.

[Pantani]

 

Which is precisely why racing groups need rolling road closure.  Think about it' date=' the goal of a racing group is to drop as many competitors as possible - improving chances of a result.  The goal of the open seeded group is to keep the bunch together, thereby enabling a better time for the race.  The two groups have completely different goals and tactics in a race.

[/quote']

 

Careful bruce, you don't want to get embroiled in this... it's really ugly!

 

[Canaris]

I take note' date=' and appreciate the real concern for other cyclists. (I just used the two strongest teams as examples) and yes, in my races I have rarely seen either team cross the white line- even when guttering with a left wind. However, even if no guttering occurs at the front, at the back the bunch does get blown across the white line and often into the bushes on the other side as well. I have to make a choice between: 1. get fitter and race at the front 2. get dropped 3. cross the white line. so I get dropped often. [img']smileys/smiley18.gif" align="middle" />

 

?

 

Which is precisely why racing groups need rolling road closure.? Think about it, the goal of a racing group is to drop as many competitors as possible - improving chances of a result.? The goal of the open seeded group is to keep the bunch together, thereby enabling a better time for the race.? The two groups have completely different goals and tactics in a race.

 

 

 

I tend to agree with Bruce. I feel the race organisers can check wind direction and attempt as far as possible to ensure rolling road blocks or complete road blocks on the sections of the roads where a left wind is most probably going to occur. THis will mean that only sections of the route will have to be under the control of a complete or rolling road block.

[bruce]

I take note' date=' and appreciate the real concern for other cyclists. (I just used the two strongest teams as examples) and yes, in my races I have rarely seen either team cross the white line- even when guttering with a left wind. However, even if no guttering occurs at the front, at the back the bunch does get blown across the white line and often into the bushes on the other side as well. I have to make a choice between: 1. get fitter and race at the front 2. get dropped 3. cross the white line. so I get dropped often. [img']smileys/smiley18.gif" align="middle" />

 

Which is precisely why racing groups need rolling road closure.  Think about it, the goal of a racing group is to drop as many competitors as possible - improving chances of a result.  The goal of the open seeded group is to keep the bunch together, thereby enabling a better time for the race.  The two groups have completely different goals and tactics in a race.

I tend to agree with Bruce. I feel the race organisers can check wind direction and attempt as far as possible to ensure rolling road blocks or complete road blocks on the sections of the roads where a left wind is most probably going to occur. THis will mean that only sections of the route will have to be under the control of a complete or rolling road block.

 

Just ask any of the top riders, they'll know exactly where the gutters are going to happen!

[Rusco]

I'm still convinced, per my previous post that rolling closures for the racing bunches is the way to go. Can anyone offer information regarding the cost (not a ridiculous thumbsuck previously mention by someone) of rolling road closer per racing group in each province? Currently in WP there is a Metro police car upfront (not sure if it's for the full duration) and the Comm at the rear. Maybe only 1 x extra cop car is required? Does this cost an arm and a leg (no pun intended)? Maybe an annual levy can be added to club/CSA fees? Maybe armed with this info a debate can be opened with PPA etc?

PS. I say again.......in the Burger on Sunday the VA bunch was escorted by a Metro cop car on the R44, literally in the oncoming lane with lights & sirens in full force, forcing traffic off the road, creating a safe environment for the leading bunch to race. Worked like a charm!!

[Pantani]

 

In all fairness' date=' Skye, this would be the wrong time to single out clubs or individuals. I am afraid 80% of the elite bunch were at fault, dangerously so, on Helshoogte. [/quote']

 

It's OK, flame all you want but anybody who goes to a race to RACE will find it difficult to "throw stones" at this behaviour...

 

 

Anybody who has followed this thread and can remember my first post on this matter... Go back and read it if you want to... But my point has been proven...

 

I still haven't seen a single prominent cyclist say anything to the contrary...

 

[Windbreaker]

I can't talk for the upcountry races but I can state with some certainty that rolling road closure will NOT happen for any of the races in the southern suburbs. It is logistically not plausible.

 

So the solution is -

for as many races as possible have rolling road closure and don't complain about the added expense which should be levied only on those whom it benefits - right?

For those races where there is no possibility of road closure stick to the white line rule - no exceptions - right?

 

The problem here is that there was NO official rolling road closure at the Burger and it is clear from the pictures that there was no protective escort for those guys in the right lane - so even if there is a compromise as above it will still be flouted by some - "cause we're racing so screw the rest".

 

It's clear that not everyone has that mindset from posting like Bruce's & Konafan but my guess is that it's the majority and it's that mindset which causes the problem. Unless they are policed they will continue to take chances and effectively CHEAT.

 

[Pantani]

Yes... so 80% of the Elite field cheats... And half the field of back markers cheats... Still means we have to address the issue of cheating then...

[Windbreaker]

 

In all fairness' date=' Skye, this would be the wrong time to single out clubs or individuals. I am afraid 80% of the elite bunch were at fault, dangerously so, on Helshoogte. [/quote']

 

It's OK, flame all you want but anybody who goes to a race to RACE will find it difficult to "throw stones" at this behaviour...

 

 

Anybody who has followed this thread and can remember my first post on this matter... Go back and read it if you want to... But my point has been proven...

 

I still haven't seen a single prominent cyclist say anything to the contrary...

Pantani, all you've done is play devil's advocate with some pretty weak arguments. And your point isn't proven (whatever it actually was) , for example Bruce stated that in some cases his team make a conscious, responsible decision NOT TO GUTTER because it could be unsafe for others. Konafan states (as I do) that he'd rather be dropped (often) than cross the white line. Sure these two approaches do affect the racing BUT the fact is that rolling road closure will not become the norm and the only way to ensure that we don't have pissed of motorists & authorities closing down our races is if we demand good organisation and we as cyclists stick to the rules of each and every event! We have all known about the white line rule at PPA events for years.

 

Anything else is just argument for argument sake.

 

[slowpoke]

rusco, i've done rolling road closures - you need 4 motorbikes - 2 on the left and 2 on the right and they leapfrog each other from intersection to intersection. cars don't work well for rolling road closures - they struggle to get past the cyclists/walkers/runners/traffic. R400 MINIMUM is realistic for a biker to ask - covers wear and tear, petrol and insurance. just remember that if one of you lot take me out, i get stuck paying the excess for a cliam. to replace the fairings on an average bike is around R20000, and no, it's not as simple as "just fix it" - they are not metal that can be panelbeaten or welded. a set of decent mirrors costs upwards of R800 and you cannot buy just one - if one of you lot break my bike's mirror i have to replace it to be legal on the road. trust me, i was pissed as hell after the walk the talk event cos we'd parked our bikes, gone to get our post-marshalling cooldrinks, and got back to a shattered mirror - it appeared some f-nut had casually walked past the bikes possibly carrying something and casually smacked all the mirrors down the left hand side (all 3 in a row had been smacked). so yeah, R400 per bike times 4 per bunch. i'd suggest that due to that extra cost the licenced guys should pay more accordingly - why should the funriders carry the costs of you lot not being capable of sticking to the rules?

[Pantani]

Agreed windbreaker... And the Pro's are cyclists too. We need them to buy into this as well... I actually don't advocate rolling closures... Just saying if we can't all consciously abide by the rules, and this is evident in certain racing bunches, then we need to be forced to abide.

 

Start with the pro's, those who decide to stick to the rules, cool, those who don't need to have the full force of cycling's governing body brought to bear upon them since they are all members of the said body. Implement this at the highest level of the sport and we can roll it out to the rest from there....

 

Otherwise.. I still don't see any top teams, cyclists, managers coming out and voicing an opinion... because what we are advocating isn't really what they want to hear...

 

[Legpower]

 

Found this on the PPA site today

 

CYCLING MARSHALS NEEDED: We are looking for cycling marshals to assist at funrides (riding in their seeded groups), primarily wrt the ?white line rule? and littering. In particular, we need cycling marshals with a seeding of A to L, who usually ride the longer routes. Contact the PPA office if you are keen.

[Spinnekop]

Pantani' date=' all you've done is play devil's advocate with some pretty weak arguments. And your point isn't proven (whatever it actually was) , for example Bruce stated that in some cases his team make a conscious, responsible decision NOT TO GUTTER because it could be unsafe for others. [/quote']

 

But then again Bruce are one fo the few that does this.......the only ones that I know off actually.

 

And as long as there will be wind......there will be gutter.....It is part of cycling......

 

Konafan states (as I do) that he'd rather be dropped (often) than cross the white line.

 

Konafan gets dropped riding over a speed hump......

Or you can just send him through Valhalla and he will NEVER find you or his home.

 

Sure these two approaches do affect the racing BUT the fact is that rolling road closure will not become the norm

 

Well' date=' I hope you are wrong.  What else?  Racing like it is?  Without going over the white line?  (Like that is happening at the moment??????????????)

 

and the only way to ensure that we don't have pissed of motorists & authorities closing down our races is if we demand good organisation

 

 

Are you part of a union?  Demand?  Like they care?  Money talks and bullsh*t walks......have you not learned anything in kindergarden???  Organisers only care about how much it is going to cost.  Look at slowpoke......4 bikes.....R2000 this....blah...blahh....blah.....

 

 

 and we as cyclists stick to the rules of each and every event!

 

 

This is surely the quote of the day.....stick to the rules.....is this whole "boring" 80 pages (It will be soon) not about cyclists NOT sticking to the rules??? 

 

They (we) will never do.  Not even if someone gets killed.

This is the sociaty we live in.....so try and change it or get a  solution to work around sociaty....

 

 

[Marius]

I was paging thru the Ride Mag last night, the one with the pics of Fanie and FanD, it clearly said" cyclists will have the exculsive use of old Hells", yet cars were driving down there while we raced, so it's one for the cars and one for the cyclists, both f#cked up. ok, only one car but lots of cyclists hiehie

[Canaris]

 

Konafan gets dropped riding over a speed hump......

 

Or you can just send him through Valhalla and he will NEVER find you or his home.

 

 

 

?

 

 

 

considering that I used to get dropped over the cat's eye, I accept then you have witnessed an improvement in my cycling.

 

 

 

Also I get lost deliberatly now so that I have a valid excuse to enjoy long rides.