LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[tombeej]

Come December I will have been doing this for 2 yrs.

 

I'm still very much in the process of becoming more fat adapted, less and less 'bonkable'. This takes a lot longer than people think. I am convinced of that. People who think they're fully fat adapted after 3 - 6 months... well actually there's still a very long way to go in your journey (which is a good thing, enjoy it ).

 

TBH I've only recently started putting a banana or dried fruit in my back pocket on a long ride mainly as a result of what I was reading on this thread. If I'm honest with myself, I'm not enjoying it and I get the feeling I'm going backwards a bit. So I'm going back to things like water only on the bike and maybe some pemmican, macnut butter or coconut oil before the ride.

 

The upcoming Amashova is going to be my first bike race since '99 and I've now committed to doing it on water and LCHF only. I'm unseeded so will have to ride from the back of the field so will be one long time trial. I'll soon find out if I need carbs for racing or not .

Edited September 18, 2013 by tombeej

[Roux 1]

Very Interesting comments from you guys..

 

On the point of intensity and racing: 5,1/2 months ago I fired myself from our training group. Intensity to high :mellow: I adopted 180 rule and stayed om my eating regime. Although volume was high. Some of my points will echo experiences you had:

• First couple of months felt good, but started getting more tired. -- note to self must sleep more
  
• When I did a race or high intensity the last 2/3 weeks I could keep intensity high i.e. <85% of max for a period. Above that is like spending on credit card, you pay later. Remember I did not take carbs with me. Closest carb would be nuts.---- note to self.. If running high intensity on fats::: it is possible to do high intensity for a period then you just go slower. This is not bonking. You just cannot maintain >90% ,
  
• Did XCO race: ave HR 95% of max for 1h30min. Used peptosport.
  

Notes to self:

• I do not know if my body uses ketones for energy. I do not have blood meter. I like red wine. And if you take in higher carbs > 50g/day ketones are gone :eek: (spur spinach for example)Then it can take a week to go back into ketones. To use ketones for energy no cheating regime must be followed.
  
• Fat adaption is within all of our reach, some just more than others, why is base such an imported component of training -- to learn your body to use fat i.e. you are conditioning your anergy path ways to prolong use of fat before switching to glucose stores.
  
• LCHF/Paleo I experienced great health benefits, it is my adventure animal that needs feeding that challenge the eating regime :mellow:
  
• Just keep going although not lekker to get dropped by training group -- all just mind set.
  

It is a misconception that low carb dieters deny the role of glucose in the body. Those who understand ketogenic diets understand glucose and glycogen are NECESSARY and seek to preserve glycogen rather then spending and restocking it in spikes.

 

The goal of living in ketosis is not to walk around proving our bodies do not need glucose, infact its quite the opposite.

 

Quote from primal north..

[Roux 1]

owever, it is important to note, "Fatty Acid Oxidation" shuts down a considerable amount in the presence of insulin and for hours after. That morning carb feed many runners partake of prior to the big race pretty much forces their body to rely solely on glycogen the entire 2 to 3 hour race thanks to the initial insulin spike that shut down fatty acid oxidation by the muscles.

 

Athletes like Ben Greenfield and Timothy A. Olson are aware of this and avoid a carb spike at the start of a race.

[Leon Besaans]

Forget for a second about the many health benefits we have experienced with a healthier lifestyle.

I think the point relating to training that I was trying to make is this...

 

What if we REALLY tried to adapt ? What if we didn't give up when we hit that first mini-bonk and started taking carbs ?

What if we kept pushing that envelope and allowed the body the time to adapt - what is really possible ? Could we adapt to the point that we had the capability to perform at max or race effort without supplementation at all ?

 

I know most on here will have races to compete in, groups to ride with, or whatever valid reason why you cannot allow yourself to regularly have those "mini-failures" while riding and we then have to resort to supplementing for those peak efforts, but what if we could take the time to adapt ?

 

Because I am not a racer, this is a bit of an academic question for me - I have the luxury most of the time to train at my own pace and our group training rides are seldom so tough that I will burn through my available glycogen completely. So somewhere in my mind's eye I can see myself being able to ride at race pace, maybe even do stage races without supplementing....

 

I just cannot help but think back to more primitive man, heck even think back to the very, very early days of cycling when there were no GU's and gels - I think athletes then (and the hunters before them) were supremely adapted fat burners not through choice, but through design due to the "lifestyle" (read need to survive) then. I cannot for a second believe that a primitive hunter who had to chase down his prey always operated below 75% VO2Max and always had the opportunity to recover - there MUST have been mechanisms in our ancestral bodies that could burn stored bodyfat and burn it regardless of the requirements at rates far more efficient than what we are experiencing now. And THAT must be the ultimate goal, surely ?

 

I reckon if we stay on this, if we keep surfing those bonks for longer and longer, if we keep adapting and learning though this, we are going to have amazing conversations on here in a year or two....

 

So, 2 things here:

 

1. If you dont race its surely academic, personally I thought I was ok till Sat at van Gaalens... Nearly died, and it showed my dietary shortcomings in a big way.... I will be strictly Paleo 90% of the time, but come any ride/ race over 3 hrs and I can tell you I will consume a large bowl of pasta/ rice/ oats before. Not prepared to suffer like that again. If it will make any diffs, only time will tell.

 

2. Paleo man never spent 3 - 6 hrs at 85% HR chasing down their pray, so they did not have the need for higher carbs. They where adapt at shorter sprints to make kill. Read Joe Friel's book on Paleo for athletes.

 

All the best.

 

Leon

[jcza]

I agree with htone, we need to continue the search. I like what I eat, I like how I feel but my only concern remains the >80% VO2Max. I carbo load but with butternut, sweet potato and similar veg & I take carbs when racing. The amount of carbs ingested is probably 40gr per hour or less. I can go for 3 hours on water only, ride or race and I'm sure with more training will be able to go for longer. There is growing support for LCHF but carbs during and immediately after racing remains the issue. Even when burning fat one needs glycogen so glycogen depletion remains the concern because it will lead to bonking. Training and conditioning the body to preserve glycogen and burn fat is the key. I don't think we are patient enough and no one seems sure how long adaptation will take. My guess is that we are all different.

[davetapson]

@htone

My friend!

You are so echoing my own thoughts on this subject! Glad you put it into words for me as I am not so fluent in English. When I met you at the end of March this year I think I was some way towards becoming fat adapted. Several things happened in the meantime that made me give up the strict LCHF approach. As I stated in an earlier post I am at the moment adopting JCZA's approach towards eating and riding. I have Berg and Bush coming up in a couple of weeks time, so I am not willing to make major changes in my current regime.

 

It should not be a consideration but...; Not lekker to be ridden into the ground while riding on water alone, by someone fueled by carbs, who you know should not be doing it if the playing fields were level. I am just wondering where I might have been now if I gutsed it out for a couple of months more...

 

I dig Sniffie. He says 'I'm not so fluent in English' and then writes perfect English. Dude, if I could do 1/3 as well in Afrikaans, (or any other of our 11 official languages, I'd be proud...)

 

My partner for BnB is still getting into the MTB groove, so hopefully won't ride my legs off (although I took my eye off the ball and have left training for this far too late - hopefully the bit of training I did through winter will carry me through.

 

I'm in two minds;

1. I shouldn't be too stressed, so should I use this as a chance to try to do a stage race on water only (as a previous poster has done)

2. Or should I go with the 100 cal per 45 mins as that 100 miler did in my previous post.

 

If I do 1., in theory, I will come out better fat adapted, but how will I enjoy the race?

Is no. 2 actually what we should be doing anyway? Attia exercises with UCAN, and he's pretty pathological about being LCHF.

[davetapson]

 

It is a misconception that low carb dieters deny the role of glucose in the body. Those who understand ketogenic diets understand glucose and glycogen are NECESSARY and seek to preserve glycogen rather then spending and restocking it in spikes.

 

 

 

Nice comment.

 

Also brings to mind a quote Friel has in one of his books ( I think) that goes something like:"The fires that burn the fat are fueled by carbohydrate..."

[davetapson]

So, 2 things here:

 

1. If you dont race its surely academic, personally I thought I was ok till Sat at van Gaalens... Nearly died, and it showed my dietary shortcomings in a big way.... I will be strictly Paleo 90% of the time, but come any ride/ race over 3 hrs and I can tell you I will consume a large bowl of pasta/ rice/ oats before. Not prepared to suffer like that again. If it will make any diffs, only time will tell.

 

2. Paleo man never spent 3 - 6 hrs at 85% HR chasing down their pray, so they did not have the need for higher carbs. They where adapt at shorter sprints to make kill. Read Joe Friel's book on Paleo for athletes.

 

All the best.

 

Leon

 

Hi Leon

 

Just an observation: if you eat a high carb meal before a race, you are going to get the carb spike / insulin response that is mentioned just a few posts back. You are then fired back into depending on carbs for your race.

 

It may be better strategy to take whatever you like to eat on the bike (bars, gu's, bananas, juice) and start eating it just after the start, or after 45 mins, or after 1:30 depending on what you feel like. That way you still get the benefit of fueling most of your race with fats but you have the carbs for when intensity is high?

 

But also remember that adaption takes time. If you are <6 months into this business, then chances are that you are not adapted, and are going to struggle. My experience is that I was only just adapted (barely) for racing at 6 months. Tombeej says that he has been at it for 2 yrs and believes that it takes longer than 6mths. From my experience, I think he's right. I'm only just adapted enough to race again, and I believe that I will improve from here on - which means that the adaption process is still carrying on.

[jcza]

I dig Sniffie. He says 'I'm not so fluent in English' and then writes perfect English. Dude, if I could do 1/3 as well in Afrikaans, (or any other of our 11 official languages, I'd be proud...)

 

My partner for BnB is still getting into the MTB groove, so hopefully won't ride my legs off (although I took my eye off the ball and have left training for this far too late - hopefully the bit of training I did through winter will carry me through.

 

I'm in two minds;

1. I shouldn't be too stressed, so should I use this as a chance to try to do a stage race on water only (as a previous poster has done)

2. Or should I go with the 100 cal per 45 mins as that 100 miler did in my previous post.

 

If I do 1., in theory, I will come out better fat adapted, but how will I enjoy the race?

Is no. 2 actually what we should be doing anyway? Attia exercises with UCAN, and he's pretty pathological about being LCHF.

 

Dave I say go for it - do it on water only but pack a GU in case of emergency. Remember the waterpoints are stocked with everything you could possibly want from boerewors to ice cream.

 

B & B is all downhill anyway

[wonduhboy]

Anyone in JHB north have some Kefir Grains to spare?

My domestic decided that the "off milk" in my jar had to be thrown away...

[Mikesa9]

What a thread!

[davetapson]

Dave I say go for it - do it on water only but pack a GU in case of emergency. Remember the waterpoints are stocked with everything you could possibly want from boerewors to ice cream.

 

B & B is all downhill anyway

 

Yeh - that's the worst part - missing all the goodies.

 

In the back of my mind that is pretty much what I decided to do. I've a bag of unused bars / gu's / whatevers and will just stash some of those in my pack. In other races where I have dipped I've just grabbed whatever was available (bananas, coke, whatever) and it worked 100% - so I figure it's not critical how you get your sugar, just as long as you get some.

 

 

Edit: We get so caught up in the detail of all this - should we consume carbs when racing, shouldn't we etc etc that we forget how far we've come.

 

I was sitting at my desk last night and there is a half used tub of Cadence Marathon cluttering it up. I find myself wondering if it will be ok for my brother to use for next Sani. I have a bag full of unused bars and gu's from last Sani.

 

My race fueling used to take up about half of my training mental effort - if I didn't have what worked for me, I'd just run flat before the end.

 

Now, I don't even dream of forking out R300 / R400 for a tub of sugar. I know that should I start battling, I can grab whatever is available and I'm off like a rocket. That's a hell of a change, and certainly one for the better. My concerns over race fueling have changed from nervous trepidation to 'like, whatever...'.

Edited September 19, 2013 by davetapson

[HappyMartin]

As I said. Eggs for breakfast on race days. And I am a carb eater.

[davetapson]

Thought you guys might be interested. I replied to some guy who said something like 'I tried LCHF and it didn't work' saying that it takes a while to adapt.

 

Prof Noakes reply:

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  Dave Tapson
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  Takes time to adapt. Prsnl exprce says can't race for first 6mth of LCHF or u will have miserable time of it.
  
  
   
  
  
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  Tim Noakes
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  Perhaps true if carb tolerant. But carb intolerant seem to benefit almost immediately as reduce "damaging" carbs
   
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  11:20 AM - 19 Sep 13 ·
  Details

 

So - we continue to live and learn - and it just drives home just how personal this journey is.

 

I have to admit that I'd not have classified myself as carb tolerant - ok, my family has no history of diabetes etc, but the gastric reflux, burping and farting I get when I eat carbs is not tolerable - and long term exposure to gastric reflux gives great chance of esophageal cancer. I'll just live without eating junk thanks.

[davetapson]

As I said. Eggs for breakfast on race days. And I am a carb eater.

 

Out of interest, how many, done how?

[Mikesa9]

First summer braai this weekend for me and I understand that Skilpadjies are an excellent meal for a LCHF person. Does anyone know which butcher(s) in northern Johannesburg sell them?