LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[Older]

Check this guys BIO and the go back and read from the the paragraph that strart with:

 

"Something that I have been getting questions on is the ketogenic diet"

 

http://gator394-mbj0904-primary.hgsitebuilder.com/

[Leon Besaans]

Hi Leon

 

Just an observation: if you eat a high carb meal before a race, you are going to get the carb spike / insulin response that is mentioned just a few posts back. You are then fired back into depending on carbs for your race.

 

It may be better strategy to take whatever you like to eat on the bike (bars, gu's, bananas, juice) and start eating it just after the start, or after 45 mins, or after 1:30 depending on what you feel like. That way you still get the benefit of fueling most of your race with fats but you have the carbs for when intensity is high?

 

But also remember that adaption takes time. If you are <6 months into this business, then chances are that you are not adapted, and are going to struggle. My experience is that I was only just adapted (barely) for racing at 6 months. Tombeej says that he has been at it for 2 yrs and believes that it takes longer than 6mths. From my experience, I think he's right. I'm only just adapted enough to race again, and I believe that I will improve from here on - which means that the adaption process is still carrying on.

 

Get it, but I am more Paleo than LCHF, and I dont really have an insulin problem so not sure if its such a big deal.

 

Learning as we go.

 

Regards

[jcza]

Just wondering about pre-race

 

We have loads of fat

Protein isn't fuel

Carbs needed for glycogen

 

Do we need to eat anything?

[davetapson]

Get it, but I am more Paleo than LCHF, and I dont really have an insulin problem so not sure if its such a big deal.

 

Learning as we go.

 

Regards

 

This isn't about insulin problem - this is about triggering an insulin spike before an event by ingesting carbs and starting the race with low BG and no longer able to utilise fat as an energy source... which is one of the main benefits of paleo/lchf. Kind of like working to get an edge and then throwing it away?

[HappyMartin]

 

 

Out of interest, how many, done how?

 

Three. Omelette with cheese usually. Scrambled sometimes also with cheese. Usually I few slices of tomato with olive oil to go with it.

 

My normal porridge with coconut oil gets me too hungry too quickly for race day. I don't regard myself as carb intolerant at all. I just don't believe that is an excuse to abuse carbs.

[davetapson]

Good link from L2climb - which lead to this:

 

http://runlonger.blogspot.com/2013/05/burn-fat-for-fuel-interview-with-peter.html

 

Ignore the VESPA sales pitch and look for interesting stuff...

 

Take aways for me:

 

Will: What other food/nutrition, if any, should be taken when using Vespa?

 

Peter: VESPA/OFM makes "Strategic" use of concentrated carbohydrate calories in the diet and fueling for that synergy translates into game-changing performance. So what we find for many is to sharply restrict carbohydrates in the weeks leading up to an event, especially in the taper then, depending upon the type of event, "sneaking" some carbohydrates in with the pre-race meals. This is what we call our "Carb sneak." It is not a carbohydrate loading per se but enough to top off glycogen levels without wrecking your insulin sensitivity and fat burning capability. The night before a race many of us eat a medium rare ribeye, NY or T-bone steak with a baked potato buried in butter, sour cream and salt. The fat from the butter and sour cream not only serves to provide loads of fat calories but, more importantly serves to sharply blunt the glycemic load of the starch in the potato. This way you do not get a sharp and rapid increase in blood sugar thus no huge insulin response.

 

And:

 

fat adapted athletes are advised to use concentrated forms of carbohydrates during their competitions and hard workouts which simulate race conditions. Since the athlete generally takes in significantly less calories using VESPA and being fat adapted and we want to make this as easy as possible we recommend the athlete use whatever calorie sources work best for them whether it is gels, shot blocks, fruit, potatoes, aid station foods, etc.

 

 

Also

 

We have been led to believe carbohydrates are the answer and eating loads of carbohydrates is necessary for performance and vital health. What the nutrition "experts" missed (or have failed to tell us) are some basics of human physiology. Let's just start with diet and the complex interplay of carbohydrate ingestion and the hormone, insulin.

 

When you do the math regarding fasting blood sugar in a human this works out to amount to 1 teaspoon of sugar, as glucose, in circulation, one teaspoon! This is normal and this is where your body prefers your glucose levels to be. Blood sugar is VERY tightly regulated. So, say someone eats a whole wheat bagel. Basically they just dumped 8-10 teaspoons of glucose into their blood stream when the body likes to have 1 teaspoon. The body deals with this by secreting insulin so this toxic level of glucose can get back down to fasting levels and do so quickly.

 

But, just as importantly, to help promote glucose use high levels of insulin suppress fat burn via beta-oxidation in the cells and production and use of ketone bodies for brain and nervous system function. On the receptor sites of adipose (fat) tissue insulin functions to promote fat storage and strongly inhibits the release of fat. These are the immediate "unintended consequences" of concentrated carbohydrate consumption. There are many other possible "unintended consequences" that can crop up over time like intestinal issues, insulin resistance, weight gain, energy swings, heart disease, cancer, non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, metabolic syndrome etc.

 

 

Warmups (mine tend to be limited to strapping my helmet on...)

 

 

A couple of caveats to make this work well: Always do a long slow warm-up to prime the muscles with oxygen so you can burn fat at a high rate. This takes patience and time but pays huge dividends. This includes and is especially important for fat adapted athletes before doing a workout that is high on intensity rather than cardio.

 

And from his Vespa website:

 

It is generally not necessary to consume calories if the activity is less than 2-3 hours (for conditioned athletes), however, if the activity is going ot last beyond 2-3 hours the athlete can begin to consume calories after the first 1-2 hours.

[davetapson]

So JC, looks like your theory of chowing carbs for longer races is getting hard to argue against...

[davetapson]

Just wondering about pre-race

 

We have loads of fat

Protein isn't fuel

Carbs needed for glycogen

 

Do we need to eat anything?

 

Good question. Seems to me that whatever you don't want to do is spike your BG. So nothing is probably better than a carb rich breakfast. But I suspect whatever you normally have for breakfast will probably do?

 

In my case that would be scambled eggs with cream and whatever I can find to throw in it to make it more interesting (that is not carb rich).

 

That said, it seems you could have a little carb in it, as long as you have a lot of fat in it to suppress the insulin spike?

 

One thing that strikes me about 'doing races on water' - I don't not eat during the day. Why would I want to not eat during a race, particularly those races that take a good number of hours?

Edited September 19, 2013 by davetapson

[tombeej]

Leon, just to reiterate what Dave said, poor quality high GI carbs like sweets, chocolates, doughnuts... and of course pasta (no discernable difference your body sees between a doughnut and pasta) will cause instant high blood glucose spike & insulin response. The BG spike is followed by the inevitable mini BG crash which triggers the hunger pangs, the energy dips, switches off the bodys ability to burn any fats for fuel at all, and you're wanting to do this just before the start of a race?

 

Not counting the serious health defects that grains (pasta = wheat flour) have on our bodies, and that grains have no place in Paleo...

 

The only possible reason you'd want to load up on carbs Before the race starts, is if your glycogen stores are not fully topped up. And if that's the case then your problem is less about adequate nutrition and more about questionable preparation. No one should be going into a race already somehow in a state of partially depleted glycogen stores.

 

Pre race meal should be low GI as possible, high in nutritionally dense foods (pasta is about as nutritious as cardboard), and very high in satiety. Check out Happy Martins post about how, as a confirmed vegetarian and carb eater, he still will only have eggs or similar pre-race. And he's nowhere near being insulin resistant. Note that people are talking about consuming high GI carbs only well into the race when your body can handle them and is primed to absorb them very efficiently without any negative side effects.

 

But that would still mean high GI carbs that are glucose based, with no sign of nasty grains involved.

Edited September 19, 2013 by tombeej

[Leon Besaans]

Dave, Tombeej,

 

With you, not arguing, my argument (if its an argument) is purely trying to avoid a near death experience like I had at VG over weekend. Riding at 48yrs old after a 13 year layoff is not for the faint hearted, and I mean really, its not THAT vital in my life to be a pure fat burner.

 

So we go on and learn/ improve in small steps. If I find after coming weekend that my bowl of oats before the ride was wastefull then be it... I will hoof down more eggs on next ride and see what happens.

 

Point is, cycling is the fun part, trying to find the optimum nutrition is just to help that.

 

All the best.

[jcza]

Good question. Seems to me that whatever you don't want to do is spike your BG. So nothing is probably better than a carb rich breakfast. But I suspect whatever you normally have for breakfast will probably do?

 

In my case that would be scambled eggs with cream and whatever I can find to throw in it to make it more interesting (that is not carb rich).

 

That said, it seems you could have a little carb in it, as long as you have a lot of fat in it to suppress the insulin spike?

 

One thing that strikes me about 'doing races on water' - I don't not eat during the day. Why would I want to not eat during a race, particularly those races that take a good number of hours?

 

If I have more than 2 hours but pref 3 hours then I will have bacon & eggs.

 

I don't like eating during races, always feels like I am going to choke on the stuff which is why I prefer gels. When one is at the limit then I'm sure there isn't enough energy to digest food which is why athletes get sick.

[davetapson]

I don't like eating during races, always feels like I am going to choke on the stuff which is why I prefer gels. When one is at the limit then I'm sure there isn't enough energy to digest food which is why athletes get sick.

 

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear:

 

What I was trying to ask is: Why would a person want to race taking in no nutrition? One doesn't normally go through a normal day without food, so why try and race with no food? (Food being gels, bananas bars whatever.)

 

Just because you may be able to race on water doesn't necessarily mean that you should?

[jcza]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear:

 

What I was trying to ask is: Why would a person want to race taking in no nutrition? One doesn't normally go through a normal day without food, so why try and race with no food? (Food being gels, bananas bars whatever.)

 

Just because you may be able to race on water doesn't necessarily mean that you should?

 

Interesting question - I don't know the answer but I guess it depends how long the race is. Rare to exceed 5 hours so one should be back for lunch. Ok maybe a late lunch

[Helpmytrap]

Welcome to the Hub's R&D department.

[Helpmytrap]

I've still been in my old mindset that you need carbs before you ride. I only did this with morning rides though. The past 2-3 weeks I'd have an apple or banana with my BP/Primal coffee before my morning rides. I'll definitely give the low/no carb pre-ride meals a go and see how that works out for me.

 

Just an important note which I was guilty of as well. While on strict LCHF, one really tends to avoid carbs, as you villainise them. One of my faults was that I never had enough carbs in my recovery meals (probably what lead to me being over trained at this point in time.) But if I think back now, I have Peter Attia ringing in my ears saying that he ate up 100g of carbs after a hard (relative) ride. And I never did that, I remained sub 30g of CHO per day irrespective of how I trained which was stupid! I'm just writing this in hope that none of you reading this will/have made this mistake. Timing your carbs (as we are discussing now) is of utmost importance, because it is needed and plays a vital role in your fitness and performance. And always consume fat with carbs in order to reduce their "damage."

 

I'll only riding on Sunday again, so I hope that I'm well rested then and hope that I've recovered enough. I'll be taking next week easy though as well, just in case.

[htone]

tapson it is good to have you back