LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[Helpmytrap]

tombeej - I haven't been following this thread at all, but your post yesterday was very interesting, thank you.

 

I have a question regarding typical LCHF dieting. Is calorie counting supposed to be a part of it? Several sources I've read claim eat all the fat you want, no need to worry about calories. Intuitively this does not make sense, does not extend logically. If it did extend you'd have guys with ripped abs who were eating blocks of butter for breakfast and buckets of KFC for lunch and dinner. You'd also have guys looking like rakes, while eating thousands of calories of fat every day. I ain't never seen nunna dat. (Or are they out there and I've somehow been missing them? stranger things have happened I guess)

So can it be that there's no need for calorie counting in the early-mid stages of fat loss, but once you get down to low levels of bodyfat the dietary fat intake has to be monitored/restricted? Or what's the deal?

There is no need to count because your body has the ability to regulate itself. When you start feeling full, you stop eating and when you're hungry (not peckish,) you eat. That is why there is no need to count.

Granted that if you do up your fat, in the beginning stages it is very much like the doctor that says you can eat all the ice-cream and jelly you want when you get your tonsils out. Yes you can eat "all you want" but that doesn't mean you have the ability to do so. Point being, on the standard diet that doesn't contain too much fat, one's liver is accustomed to only needing to produce a certain amount of bile. So if you eat too much too soon you will feel nauseous because your body isn't accustomed to it and it needs to learn to produce more bile in order to break down all the "additional" fat. - Hope that makes sense.

 

PS, steer clear of KFC or any fast food joint of any kind, it's not the greasy factor, it is the type of grease as well as the questionable origin and quality of what you are putting in your body.

[2wheelsgood]

lol no worries there, I don't eat land meat and would happily starve rather than step into a fastfood restaurant. Thanks, I think I understand, if the body is regulating itself then presumably if you did eat excess fat it would have to be excreted (since without sugar/insulin the body can't store it anyway).

[Sniffie]

 

A lot have been said on this forum in the last couple of posts about what paleolithic people ate and that most of it is conjecture. I would be the first to admit that it is impossible to say exactly what our paleolithic ancestors diet looked like, but like in any other science it is possible through clues available to us today to form a very educated opinion of what their diet looked like:

 

1. We may not know exactly what they ate but we know exactly what they did not ate. Grains as we know it today have not been part of the human diet before the age of agriculture which was around 10000 to 13000 years ago. In terms of our Homo. genus's evolutionary timescale of roughly 2 million years it is a very short time frame to adapt to a completely new ingredient in the diet.

2. By examining fossil records of middens of early paleolithic human settlement it is possible to determine what they ate. Off course not all the foodstuff left fossil records.

3. Looking at the diet of the few remaining hunter gatherer tribes that we modern humans studied over the past 400 years would give us a good clue what their, and our, paleolithic forefathers ate.

4. Nutritionists look at biochemical pathways to determine how our diet has changed over a period of roughly 5 million years since our evolutionary split from the rest of the apes began. For example there is enough evidence to suggest that during the past 2,5 million years these biochemical pathways has brought us closer to an animal based diet than a plant based diet. I am not saying we are pure carnivores, but we are omnivores who have adapted to eating a very mixed diet of animal and plants.

5. By examining the diet of other non extinct hominid species in the wild, like gorillas and chimps, we can also have a glimpse at what our diet must have looked like a million years ago.

 

To suggest that stone age people only lived to 21 is also only half the truth and misleading. Yes, their life expectancy might have been 10, 20 or even 30 years less than ours, but you must remember 2 things:

a. Life expectancy is just a number, an average of a certain population. It says nothing about the maximum age certain individuals reached, or even the distribution of age at death for that population. To illustrate my point: Childbirth during paleolithic times must have accounted for a lot of premature deaths, as would have a lot of other things we no longer see as huge causes of premature death: snakebite, insect stings, simple infections etc, etc. Hunting a wild boar, mammoth or any other big protein and fat provider would have accounted for a lot more premature deaths than a trip to your local deli. Fossil records indicate that individuals who survived childhood and puberty often reached ages in excess of 60 years and even much older. Furthermore their quality of life must have been great without modern lifestyle sicknesses like diabetes, cardiovascular ailments and certain cancers.

b. If it were not for the advent of modern medicine our own life expectancy with our modern sedentary lifestyle and addiction to things like tobacco, sugar and alcohol would be much, much lower.

So to think that stone age people's relative short life expectancy was as a result of a poor diet is very shortsighted.

 

Just a word on venison and its supposed lack of fat. Yes, it is true that venison has much lower fat content than domesticated animals, but one must remember that hunter gatherer tribes ate virtually the whole carcass. Some species of antelope carry quite a lot of fat around the intestines, and that fat along with other fatty organs like the kidneys, liver, intestines, marrow and brains would have been devoured first. The "prime cuts" of our hunter gatherer forefathers don't even reach the shelves of your local butcher these days. Try to get your hands on some sheep offal these days! In Afrikaans we would say: "Skaarser as hoendertanne!" Some tribes like the Inuit would even discard, or feed to their dogs, lean cuts of meat in favor of the fat and blubber.

 

I must go, I smell some offal potjie in the kitchen and I am salivating all over the keybord!

 

 

[schizo]

So I've been reading up abit on this recently, thou do not have the time to read every post, but would like to loosely follow this way of eating, I'm not looking to lose weight, its more for energy while riding and also eating better on the longer rides, in the past I've used anything from jelly beans to marshmallows. If I understand correctly Tim Noakes is saying this way of eating lasts longer and you wouldn't need to eat much during a 3-4 hour cycle, is that correct? Also how could someone adjust there eating to follow this in some ways, Like what would be the top 5 things for the beginner to start doing?

[DaleE]

So I've been reading up abit on this recently, thou do not have the time to read every post, but would like to loosely follow this way of eating, I'm not looking to lose weight, its more for energy while riding and also eating better on the longer rides, in the past I've used anything from jelly beans to marshmallows. If I understand correctly Tim Noakes is saying this way of eating lasts longer and you wouldn't need to eat much during a 3-4 hour cycle, is that correct? Also how could someone adjust there eating to follow this in some ways, Like what would be the top 5 things for the beginner to start doing?

 

A VERY short beginners summary for you to answer some of your questions ...

 

Yes, once fat adapted you can go longer without the need to refuel. this both on the bike and during daily living.

For endurance riding, fat and protein may be sufficient for you. For sprinting you will probably benefit from some carbs directly before or during the race.

 

My top 5 list for you ... ok, i cheated, it's a top 7

1. stop eating sugar. All sugar. including soft drinks

2. stop eating cakes, refined carbs, flour, bread, etc

3. give all the beer to your neighbour ... develop a taste for red wine or whiskey

4. stay away from all corn based oils (aka vegetable oils), anything made with them (marg, mayo, etc) or anything cooked in them

5. try to eat as much real or whole foods as possible. If it was not alive recently, then give it a miss.

6. start eating healthy fats. coconut oil, butter, avo oil, cream, etc

7. understand that if you do 1-6 you will feel lousy for about 1-2 weeks while your body adapts ... no way past this ... just guts it out!

 

If you don't run screaming at the though of 1-7, you may be in for a very interesting dietary experience

 

go look at http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf for a far better understanding - it's an easy read.

[Sniffie]

Dale, I think you mean grain based oils, as corn is just another type of grain. The 'bad' oils is thus things like sunflower, canola, soybean, corn, wheat germ and peanut oil, as peanuts isn't a true nut but a legume.

[DaleE]

Dale, I think you mean grain based oils, as corn is just another type of grain. The 'bad' oils is thus things like sunflower, canola, soybean, corn, wheat germ and peanut oil, as peanuts isn't a true nut but a legume.

 

Yes, that's what I meant.

Thanks

[Roux 1]

So I've been reading up abit on this recently, thou do not have the time to read every post, but would like to loosely follow this way of eating, I'm not looking to lose weight, its more for energy while riding and also eating better on the longer rides, in the past I've used anything from jelly beans to marshmallows. If I understand correctly Tim Noakes is saying this way of eating lasts longer and you wouldn't need to eat much during a 3-4 hour cycle, is that correct? Also how could someone adjust there eating to follow this in some ways, Like what would be the top 5 things for the beginner to start doing?

 

Well come to this journey. If I may add another point...Find out what works for you. Use the amazing research in this thread as your guideline. The data here is unique, and it is not scripture, rather way points

[P.A.K.]

The FDA is announcing Thursday that it will require the food industry to gradually phase out trans fats, saying they are a threat to people's health.

 

Commissioner Margaret Hamburg says the move could prevent 20,000 heart attacks a year and 7,000 deaths.

 

Hamburg says that while the amount of trans fats in the American diet has declined dramatically in the last decade, they "remain an area of significant public health concern."

 

The agency isn't yet setting a timeline for the phase-out, but will collect comments for two months before officials determine how long it will take.

 

Trans fat is widely considered the worst kind of fat for your heart. They are often found in processed foods, including some microwave popcorns and frozen pizzas, refrigerated doughs and ready-to-use frostings.

[davetapson]

Hey Tom - we need your input - it's all about a balanced view and yours is great for that. One of the best.

 

There is some twak spoken on this thread by those with agendas not aligned to what this thread is all about - but it's a public forum and you always get morons. On the whole, the thread is the most informative and civilised on the hub.

 

When / if you get over what has particularly peed you off, please don't not contribute... don't let the trolls win...

 

And maybe I need to define what the agenda of this thread is, in my mind (which I'm allowed to - I started it originally).

 

It started off as an enquiry into peoples' experience of LCHF and grew to embrace the continuum of paleo to hard-core ketogenic diets.

 

There can be discussion about paleo vs hckd vs anything inbetween - but there is no right and wrong - different people have different objectives from going LC, so there can be no generic right and wrong. (Apart from HCLF - that is wrong. For this thread.)

 

There can be personal right and wrongs (htone is going to be more hardcore than happymartin and tombeej - he has real reason to be so) - but they are personal.

 

What may be right/wrong for me may or may not be right/wrong for you. The whole point of the exercise is to find out where that line lies on a personal basis.

 

So, conclusion:

Don't take offence if everyone doesn't agree with what works for you. They are different and have different agendas. However, it is the commonalities and personal experiences that are providing the value in this thread.

 

There are gong to be morons coming in and disrupting the thread. That is how they entertain / validate themselves. Ignore them.

 

People who don't yet understand LCHF will come and say uninformed things - help them out if they are interested, ignore them if they are trolling.

 

My 2c.

[htone]

Dijon Vu - the sense that you have tasted this mustard before ?

[Roux 1]

Good summery Dave.....

 

I have been observing all the posts as of late so I'll add my experiences in segments. . This is my results and conclusions on my n=1 experiments(high volume and intensity training), reading of material pertaining to LCHF/Paleo lifestyle. I do not have PI cover so no claims against me is allowed.

• A lot is said about GROK, cave man and his habits.
  
• Also there is a need for scientific research on: LCHF/Paleo, health, endurance sports, illnesses i.e. diabetes, heart, high BG etc.
  
• Isn't this whole thread filled with scientific results. Tested on various subjects.(was tempted put names here!!) ... The research on this thread is not outcome based, what I mean is that sometimes science experiments are done with results already in mind or is paid by a company with alternative motives.
  
• Motives here are stemming from health and being active.
  
• I copied this thread from the start on word and it is 1500+ pages. So Dave register copy rights on this info
  
• The data here is guidelines, and must be tested on yourself. What I mean by that is:
  
  • I do not believe Grok's life style is 100% applicable today. So Sission is 70% correct. That goes for Taubes, Phinney etc.
    
  • Evolution of man played a role, --being pure hunter gatherers and eating the same, not possible, thus being addicted to endurance and training a lot(my data on Strava) 50g carbs/day does not work. Question: Is 150g/day carbs still low carb??? YES. (see Ben Greenfield & Low carb and endurance books)
    
  • How my life changed:
    
    • sinus problem 50% better, eyes not so light sensitive. BG stable.
      
    • Will I eat some starches---Yes.
      
    • Am I a avid sugar-man now? No. Rather have clearer understanding of it.
      
    • I understand now what preserving glycogen stores means. If you train a lot this does not mean carbs is the enemy.
      
    • I love making food, I enjoy eating this way.
      

Cheers

[Topwine]

It's actually quite funny how some people can call others "morons" for having views contrary to their own, or questioning the facts and science of their statements of health.

It actually says a lot about such a person, it takes a bigger one to call another one.

 

Anyway, this thread was not "first" started by Dave Tapson. I know he likes attention and claims many things, but the first thread on this topic was actually started by Flymango here , https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/113902-prof-tim-noakes-u-turn-on-carbohydrates/ , and then because one guy likes his name so much, he started his own thread, and it continued and merged into the previous one which was deleted by accident and then this last one, Version 2.

 

It is important to get your facts right.

[Cuppa Bru]

LMAO

Topwine, stop with the ad hominems.

You bring a balance to this thread with contrarian info, but most of your posts go over my head, and your patronising tone causes tension (and leads to your contributions being lost in any case).

 

I have reintroduced minimal vegetable carbs to my diet following your and some others' post, but I maintain that strict LCHF was a godsend that changed my life for the better.

 

Thanks to everyone sharing their info!

[davetapson]

 

I have been observing all the posts as of late so I'll add my experiences in segments. .

 

Nice.

 

Just as a comment - Noakes proposes a limit of carbs at 200g - so LC may well be considered to run from 200g downwards.

 

If you can deal with 200g, then things like beer probably become possible...

 

A person needs to find what level is appropriate for them...

[htone]

Today marks the end of a two week n=1 experiment around dairy and the influence of that on my weight. I have kept my activity level to about 8 hours of cycling per week and the intensity of that has been adjusted to remain below 140bpm HR and as much as this is an uncontrolled experiment I tried to keep my food intake roughly the same throughout.

 

I removed cream and yoghurt in totality from my diet and kept my milk intake to about 200ml of milk per day in my breakfast shake and a drop or two in no more than 2 cups of coffee every day.

 

Week 1 was a week without cream (but still had yoghurt as desert) and Week 2 was as described above, only minimal milk.

 

Conclusion after 2 weeks of “dieting on dairy” – in my case that made zero difference, I have remained completely weight stable and thus I will be reintroducing both cream and yoghurt. I would normally see a change in weight by about day 3 or 4 when I fiddle with other parameters.

 

This has been quite surprising – I know that I have an insulin/BG reaction to milk when I consume about 300ml or more at a time and I thought that the same would be true for cream but it is not – as cream has a higher fat content and less lactose than milk.

 

My experiment for the next two weeks is going to center around the reduction of my protein intake to about 1g/kg of bodyweight, where I am currently consuming about 2g/kg, that being split into two or three servings spread through the day, either in my breakfast shake or mixed up with some cream and/or yogurt at snack times. Since I have pretty much tweaked my diet to what constitutes perfection to me, I have a suspicion that my increased protein intake over the last months may have been the leading cause of some kg’s that were added over winter. I do know that I am insulin sensitive to whey protein in general, even the low-carb SupplementsSA version that I am currently taking, so I am putting some money on that as one of the triggers to restart weight loss.

 

I have just had my thyroid, blood and free testosterone tested and all my numbers are looking great, so the overall trend from being VLCHF for just over a year has been an astonishing improvement in my health and general wellbeing. Like davetapson said, maybe a bit hardcore for some, but if you have hardcore health issues, then that’s the way to attack them.

 

Namaste.

H