LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[htone]

Was on holiday in Italy for 2 weeks. Very challenging on my vegetarian diet. Didn't get as much protein as I like and also not nearly as much fat. Lived on pasta, pizza and sweets. Lots of ice cream and coke. Very bad diet.

 

I noticed that I developed a sugar craving and now have a sugar aversion as I up my protein and fat again.

 

Put on only 1 kg. Energy levels seemed unchanged. Just not fond of the taste of all that sugar otherwise I don't see a difference. I know I am playing devils advocate again but are our bodies not designed to run on what ever is around? Surely if we are going to look at what cave men and women ate then we must accept they pigged out on seasonal stuff. Buckets of fruit when they found it. Honey when they could. Fish when salmon were spawning and so on.

 

This extreme stuff bothers me quite frankly

 

Martin, I partially agree with you, but as with everything, we need to keep perspective.

In essence this discussion will boil down to availability of food (then and now).

For cavemen to get fruit back then when there was no agriculture and hence no orchards, it would have meant that they would stumble across a fruit tree somewhere. That fruit tree would have borne fruit that was much smaller and much less sugary than any of the fruit we can buy in the shops today, because they have not been genetically modified or bred from selected cultivars to produce high-sugar, large (similarly) shaped fruit.

 

Equally, for them to get honey, they would have had to risk an almost certain death to get the honey out of a wild beehive as I am pretty sure they wouldn't have mastered bee-keeping back then.

So yes, maybe they did occasionally pig out on these things when they could get their hands on it, but not to the extent that "we" have been doing it in the last 5 or 6 decades. And I think this is where the danger lies, is when we bend the reality to fit our perception. They maybe pigged out once a year or at best, once per "season" while we do it all the time.

 

Always remember that in any given group of people (this eclectic group on the forum is an excellent example) you will have those that can eat high amounts of carbs and not see any negatives from it, whilst others (and that's where I am standing) nearly killed myself by overdoing carbs and sugars specifically. Moderation is the key. And you have just explained exactly what has happened to most of us on LCHF who attempt a high-sugar food source - you cannot stand the taste and form an aversion to it. Why would your body do that if it is ok with eating whatever is around ?

[htone]

Was on holiday in Italy for 2 weeks. Very challenging on my vegetarian diet. Didn't get as much protein as I like and also not nearly as much fat. Lived on pasta, pizza and sweets. Lots of ice cream and coke. Very bad diet.

 

Martin, I am not picking on you today , but this is just such an interesting observation !

 

I have friends who are Italian with relatives in the rural areas in Italy and they eat almost no pizza or pasta. In fact it is probably eaten once a week at most. The diet that the guys on the working farms eat is much closer to the mediterranean diet as it has become popularly known, which is high in oils and fats (like cheeses, cream and milk), fresh fruits and vegs, but it also contains a fair amount of bread and of course, Vino !

 

When you move closer to the cities and the touristy areas, you suddenly find that pizza and pasta have become the staple dishes - definitely influenced by the American fast-food market and the commercialisation of what people expect the Italian diet to be !

[HappyMartin]

I don't t feel picked on at all. You observation is quite accurate. Spent a lot of time in rural areas. No pizza but piadina and pasta. Problem is loads of meat. Ham in everything. Not as much fruit as I am used to. No bananas or pawpaw for example. Don't usually eat so much bread. Breakfast was sweet croissants and so on. Tough for my taste buds. Nice as a treat but by day 3 not so much fun.

[davetapson]

Re. the 'eat whatever is around' thing.

 

I spent a while cruising around Thailand. What was interesting to me, having been involved in rural development both in Nam(ibia) and SA is just how rural/thirdworld/primitive rural Thailand is.

 

Aside from rice which keeps them alive in times of hardship, they eat WHATEVER is around. If it can't run/fly/crawl/dig away fast enough, it gets chowed. But what tends to happen is that things are seasonal - so they will eat wild fruit when it is in season, cicadas when they are in season etc. Which means they have a continually changing diet as things come in and out of season. Continually changing but probably monotonous at the same time. Theres are only so many cicadas one can eat before becoming somewhat jaded. I imagine, anyway.

 

They don't tend to have any one kind of fruit, bug, whatever on hand continually, as we do at Woolies / PnP etc. And wild fruits just are not the same as domesticated fruits. As anyone who has eaten mdonis / marulas etc will know.

 

What is also interesting to me, a forager of the Woolworths ecosystem, is just how quickly new, sweeter varieties of apples are coming out. They are flippn delicious - sweeter and crisper each verson. Like someone said somewhere, just a natural candybar.

[htone]

Yeah Dave, it think it was Dietdoctor who said "Fruit is Nature's Candy". And I think we would probably look at fruit a lot differently if we knew just exactly how modified the stuff is that we buy nowadays, be that from the Monsanto type GMO process or via selective cultivation. Scary stuff...

[TLW]

Ok dudes, here's a curveball! I have been doing LCHF for a while (weight has stabilised, no further losses)... but, I'm planning on falling pregnant ... thoughts on LCHF during this time. I have emailed Prof Noakes - hoping to hear from him!

[davetapson]

Ok dudes, here's a curveball! I have been doing LCHF for a while (weight has stabilised, no further losses)... but, I'm planning on falling pregnant ... thoughts on LCHF during this time. I have emailed Prof Noakes - hoping to hear from him!

Let me guess Prof Noakes response: Well done, keep on keeping on!!

 

Remember, to Noakes (and to us ;-) ) this is not a 'fad' diet. This is how one should be eating. In sickness and in health - and I'd assume, pregnancy. It's so hard to step out of years of conditioning. E.g. I still don't feed my kids LCHF - I try and steer towards it, but still put sandwiches, banana's etc in their lunch boxes, and Oros in their lunch bottles.

 

Let us know what he says!!

[Wet Ears]

Let me guess Prof Noakes response: Well done, keep on keeping on!!

 

Remember, to Noakes (and to us ;-) ) this is not a 'fad' diet. This is how one should be eating. In sickness and in health - and I'd assume, pregnancy. It's so hard to step out of years of conditioning. E.g. I still don't feed my kids LCHF - I try and steer towards it, but still put sandwiches, banana's etc in their lunch boxes, and Oros in their lunch bottles.

 

Let us know what he says!!

 

Dave you raise an interesting point. I am still in the very early stages of this diet so I am in effect acting as the family guinea pig! That said, in 6 months time if this diet works for me as it has done for most of you I still do not believe that I would put my kids on it. The question to myself then is, what is this saying about LCHF. Is there still a lingering concern due to the past 30 years indoctrination regarding low fat diets - hell yes. Maybe after being on the diet for 6 months I will be a true convert and recommend to all and sundry.

 

On the other hand - I ate zarmies, sweets, Oros, nesquick etc as a kid and was in good nick and played multiple sports at provincial level. As Noakes said, if you are not carb resistant and doing just fine on your current diet why change. That is the view I will adopt with my kids, just worried that the carbs in childhood/adolescence may eventually lead to carb resistance.

 

Whole lot to digest and consider!

Edited June 4, 2013 by Wet Ears

[HappyMartin]

Interesting We Ears that you have reservations about putting you children in the diet. It got me thinking.

 

Anyone that has been following this thread will know that I am not on the diet and do play devils advocate here. I hope in a constructive and positive way. That is my intention.

 

I dont however see why this diet would be bad for children if followed correctly. My only concern is that if laziness creeps in it would be easy to avoid fresh raw veggies and fruit. We talk a lot about carbs, fats and proteins but not much is said about micro nutrients. Actually not that much is even known about micro nutrients other than a general belief that they are important. There is more to nutrition that calories. Ask anyone who has gone protein deficient but has still had the correct amount of calories.

 

So if we are getting calories from fats rather than low quality carbs and still getting micro nutrients from salads and so on why not for kids. My feeling is a childhood of sugars is setting a person up for disaster later in life. As a child I had virtually no access to sweets and cool drinks. Today I tolerate those things well but don't have much of a fondness for them. Cause and effect perhaps.

 

On the fruit question. A lot gets said about how fruit has been changed over centuries and is not the same as it was in times gone by. I am sure there is some truth in this but no evidence to say just how much change has occurred. People on this thread have remarked on how sweet fruit is these days. Have you not considered that this observation is driven largely by you not eating carbs and sugars in particular. Try the following experiment. It takes a little time and is done over a day. Take 2 apples and in the evening after a low carb day eat the one apple. You will find it very sweet. The next day after dinner have a cup of tea with 2 sugars and then eat a small Bar One. Straight after eat the apple. Was the apple still sweet? That will put in context just how sweet the rubbish is that we eat. The apple only tastes sweet if your diet is correct. With a good diet a white bread roll with nothing on it tastes sweet.

 

As has been said, the diet is not for everyone. I think it becomes compulsory after years of sugar abuse. Why subject your children to the consequences of carb heavy diet? If they eat well as little ones they will be less likely to have to follow an extreme diet and will be able to tolerate carbs on occasion with no negative side effects. They are also less likely to be carb junkies as some people on this thread seen to be and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Sugar is a really addictive and dangerous substance.

[tombeej]

This thread is the most non-hub thread on the hub, in that the folks who post here (with maybe one exception) are genuinely interested in reading what others have to say, don't hurl abuse at someone who doesn't agree with them, and just want to make a contribution and learn from each other along the way.

 

So from where I stand, Happy, even though you might not be actively practising a LCHF diet, you're certainly also contributing to this thread, and that means I will always take the time to read what you have to say.

 

Cheers

[Woolf]

If anyone in the PTA/Kempton area is interested I may be able to get some free range grass fed organic beef for about R70/kg (all cuts). Still working on the details so send me a pm if you're interested and I'll see what the final cost would be.

[Mikesa9]

Can anyone give me a definitive answer of whether the Ucan SuperStarch product falls in line with the LCHF diet? I have been on the diet for about 3 weeks now and although I haven't lost a lot of weight, I am feeling fantastic.

 

I have researched this question as best as I can and there seems to be two schools of thought here. In the Phinney and Volek book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Permormance ( a book that Tim Noakes regularly refers to), SuperStarch is actually promoted. Yet they advocate quite clearly that we need to virtually eliminate carbs. Now I appreciate that there is no insulin spiking etc., but surely the product is still a carb and should be avoided?

 

All of your views will be appreciated.

 

BTW-what a great thread this is.

[tombeej]

Mike, yes UCAN is very popular among LCHF people.

[Mikesa9]

Mike, yes UCAN is very popular among LCHF people.

Yes, I know. But its a carb. I don't get this.

[jcza]

Yes, I know. But its a carb. I don't get this.

 

Read this - http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/introduction-to-superstarch-part-i

 

Personally I tried it, didn't like the taste and couldn't feel any difference in performance so I'm back to GU (or Vooma)

[davetapson]

 

On the fruit question. A lot gets said about how fruit has been changed over centuries and is not the same as it was in times gone by. I am sure there is some truth in this but no evidence to say just how much change has occurred. People on this thread have remarked on how sweet fruit is these days. Have you not considered that this observation is driven largely by you not eating carbs and sugars in particular. Try the following experiment. It takes a little time and is done over a day. Take 2 apples and in the evening after a low carb day eat the one apple. You will find it very sweet. The next day after dinner have a cup of tea with 2 sugars and then eat a small Bar One. Straight after eat the apple. Was the apple still sweet? That will put in context just how sweet the rubbish is that we eat. The apple only tastes sweet if your diet is correct. With a good diet a white bread roll with nothing on it tastes sweet.

 

As has been said, the diet is not for everyone. I think it becomes compulsory after years of sugar abuse. Why subject your children to the consequences of carb heavy diet? If they eat well as little ones they will be less likely to have to follow an extreme diet and will be able to tolerate carbs on occasion with no negative side effects. They are also less likely to be carb junkies as some people on this thread seen to be and I don't mean that in a disparaging way. Sugar is a really addictive and dangerous substance.

 

Hi Happy

 

Nothing wrong with stimulating debate, esp if done in a useful way.

 

My view on fruit is mainly informed from what I have observed over my lifetime - fruit has definitely got sweeter (and more delicious looking) over time, and even more so with Woolworths sourcing varieties that will sell well (crisp and sweet?). It could be argued that this is due to sourcing strategy as well as apple development.

 

Have a look at this wiki page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apple_cultivars

 

People have been fiddling with apples since 1800 - I'm pretty sure we'd not eat a primitive apple (pre 1800?) as it wouldn't stack up compared to modern apples. In fact, check this out - this is the apple variety that fell on Sir Isaac Newton's noggin... The Flower of Kent is a green variety of cooking apple. According to the story, this is the apple Isaac Newton saw falling to ground from its tree, inspiring his laws of universal gravitation. It is pear-shaped, mealy, and sub-acid, and of generally poor quality by today's standards.

 

My current favourite is the Pink Lady (other wise known as a Cripps Pink)

Description? "Crisp, very sweet and slightly tart. Light red, pink and light yellow-green striped skin."

 

 

I'd argue that LCHF is only for people that have 'abused' carbs - we were brought up without eating many sweets, don't have sugar in tea/coffee etc and don't generally have a sweet tooth. We also have no history of diabetes of any kind in our family. Our family body type is tall and skinny so we just don't fit the 'Carb Intolerant' mould. However, both my brother and I (independantly - we didn't know each other was doing this) have gained real benefits from following LCHF eating - GERD gone, lost weight, stable blood sugar levels etc.

 

I'm not saying the diet is for everyone, but I think it is for more people than one would initially imagine.

 

That's my 2c

 

I also suspect that even tho you say you don't follow the LCHF thing, you probably adhere more to it's principles than your average pap en wors / MacDonalds / Debonaires eating, beer / coke drinking fellow citizen...?