CSA / PPA. The Heat is on

[Ward]

Just then look at WP Athletics to see what really happened when the mother body started to own/control everything. It is a power and money thing, nothing else.

 

im sure that woulnt happen with WP Cycling, theyre just finishing off their WPCA Winter League, which cost R80 per race and all money-expenses goes back to the riders as prize money

Edited June 12, 2013 by Ward

[Skubarra]

So youre saying that because they have "17000 or 18000" members and has been around for 37 years they almost have the right to do what they want an ultimately take over CSA's job in the running of cycling in South Africa?

 

 

I don't profess to know all the details, but from what I understand PPA has no interest replacing CSA in the "running of cycling in South Africa", they have very different goals and objectives to CSA, the link to the avadavit above explains their point reasonably well

[Icycling]

The phrase the "best of a bad bunch" comes to mind here. On that PPA still even get my Vote! But:

 

Lets consider:

 

1. This high court application - which lawyer or legal firms are working on this are they on the PPA EXCO or connected to PPA EXCO members in any way and are they charging any fee? If they are not on the EXCO then PPA application has more credibility too me! If they are on the EXCO but receiving Zero remuneration - PPA credibility still 100% intact, my opinion. If are on the EXCO and charging any fee - even if claim to be substantially reduce (did PPA get other quote) - then the PPA credibility is already 50% out the window in my opinion! As posted earlier on the hub "Well, if you think business class travel is expensive, wait til you see the cost of this High Court action. There goes all our CSA and PPA membership fees ... " We the cyclist / members of both or 1 will ultimately have reductions in services due to less finance from either CSA or PPA. Some may argue CSA does not provide any service anyway - but maybe those some are just not beneficiaries of that service!

 

2. PPA has a large bank account mainly due to 1 event which they are 50% profit share in i.e. the Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay cycle tour. I think we can all agree on 1 thing here this is a road cycling event - where some our view may differ is this a tour as the name suggest - a fun ride or a race? If you have asked anybody what was you time in this event or been asked what your time was and answered - I would steer towards this been a race as been the most appropriate adjective to describe the event. Others may or may not agree. So how much of this 50% profits goes back from PPA into road cycling and or racing? In terms of racing very little - it use to be more like when the Giro del Capo was hosted by PPA. In term of road cycling not a great deal either. Surely at least 50% of this should be going directly back into into road cycling - from road safety, road fun rides and even road racing?

 

3. PPA until last year was investing over R200 000.00 per month in unit trust - now been moved into a separate trust which PPA is a beneficiary off. Over the course of the past number of years this money has grown substantially! As current or ex PPA members we really should be asking why PPA see it necessary to have such a large reserve fund - and why is it not been spent on cycling annually? We are PPA member now and should get maximum benefit for our membership while we are members - correct. Yes to have adequate reserve funding for the association to exist for 1 year after they have received their last cent from membership is prudent - but does it really need to be more than this? Can we seriously say all that need to be done for cycling is been done for cycling - if so then PPA is doing the right thing by just been a "cycling bank" if not then we as members are been short changed. I as a road racing cyclist would like to see more racing taking place in the WP - WPCA has just done a stunning job of putting on a winter series of event and I have been lead to believe that the prize fund now stand at about R20 000.00 to be handed out soon. Why does PPA see fit to hand out R200 gift voucher for Cannel walk if you win a PPA league event - is that not just showing the racing members a complete lack of respect?

 

Now I know the true fun rider will say PPA is a Fun ride association and why should they do anything for the racing cyclist?

 

A.A few answers / questions - PPA constitution states "The main purpose and object of the association is to promote cycling and the interests of cyclists" surely this statement does not exclude the racing cyclist?

 

B. Do none of the Fun rider watch the Tour de France / similar races - it only happens because its a race! Note its called a tour just like the cycle tour - not Race de France - but who we kidding if we think TDF isn't a race! Would it not be nice to see more RSA riders in this / these events?

 

C. The PPA league riders offer the league fun ride organizers some form of guarantee of entry on the day regardless of the weather as they, for the past number of season, have paid for the full series entry upfront.

 

D.With many of the league riders come other family members who also participate in the fun rides be it the shorter route.

 

E. How many of the "fun rider" look at the winning time and compare their time with that of the winner?

 

F. If for argument sake WPCA organized spring and summer league racing on the same day as PPA event - would PPA give the racing body (WPCA) their blessing? I cannot answer this but I expect not as PPA would possibly run the risk of the road fun ride no longer be financially viable for the fun ride organizer due to the reduced entry. So if this is the case then Why does PPA not just also do racing properly "a necessary evil" they certainly have the money to do it properly - maybe then CSA / gov would be siding a little more with PPA! As high lighted in this post "Pro cycling is going, it's just not going well."

 

These 2 statements are very true - and I hope my question asked in point 1 leaves PPA credibility 100% intact.

 

"Both organisations do a really lot of good work for the sport. and they both need each other. the ppa can't operate in a vacuum. the csa want them to be part of the sport's structures. as an affiliate looking after recreational cycling. just like running each participant in an event should be licensed thru a club/association/or whatever."

 

 

"It is just a pity that 2 governing bodies wants to fight it out in court spending large sums of money which could have gone towards the development of cycling"

[Skubarra]

Well, if you think business class travel is expensive, wait til you see the cost of this High Court action. There goes all our CSA and PPA membership fees ...

 

Yes that sucks! To think we are funding both sides of this ridiculous fight with our membership fees. Not money well spent

[Wannabe]

What really sucks is that neither CSA or the PPA see their way clear to assist a really talented cyclist that wants to broaden her horizons, in order to qualify for the World Track Championships, Commonwealth Games and Olympics.

She does not ask for hundreds of thousands of Rands (hell, I'm sure these fatcats spend more than what she is asking for on one function / meal.) The answer is flatly "NO, we do not have the funds to assist you. "

[madmarc]

to all the csa bashers .......if only u really knew what is going on.

simple, just replace the csa with the ppa. then what?

the ppa is only in CTown.

Yes because it all started with the ARGUS

do they have provincial champs? no

No because CSA are supposed to control that.

do they have national champs? no

No because CSA are supposed to control that.

do they award provincial colours for road,track,mtb? no

No because this is supposed to be the domain of CSA

do they organise any cycle event? No

YES - cannot believe you even asked this. and please tell me what events besides pro-events are organized by CSA?

 

do they send representative team o/seas? no

No, But how many have been sent by CSA, and what % do they pay for the few that they have sent

do they coach / train teams, individuals?no

No that's not what PPA do, besides to coach or train teams and individual at pro level you need to be an accredited UCI coach. so once again this is CSA's domain

are they affiliated to provincial or national association? no

they would like to be but CSA making it impossible for them.

 

the PPA, make use of cyclists to raise funds for various benefactors other than cycling.period. if you'r happy with that then so be it. don't moan when our representative teams have to pay their own way to compete o/seas.

 

Not saying CSA must be simply replaced by PPA. But at the moment it seems that CSA simply wants to replace PPA. Their latest move was to write PPA out of their constitution hence the pending court case.

 

Lets not forget that PPA was created for the recreational cyclists and not the pro cyclist,

[scotty]

I don't profess to know all the details, but from what I understand PPA has no interest replacing CSA in the "running of cycling in South Africa", they have very different goals and objectives to CSA, the link to the avadavit above explains their point reasonably well

 

Good to know if PPA did take over CSA, they will apply their anti competitive idea of ONLY using Racetec for races and everyone that did not belong to them will not to get results even if they had racetec chips.

[Lucky Luke.]

to all the csa bashers .......if only u really knew what is going on.

simple, just replace the csa with the ppa. then what?

the ppa is only in CTown.

do they have provincial champs? no

do they have national champs? no

do they award provincial colours for road,track,mtb? no

do they organise any cycle event? No

 

do they send representative team o/seas? no

do they coach / train teams, individuals?no

are they affiliated to provincial or national association? no

 

the PPA, make use of cyclists to raise funds for various benefactors other than cycling.period. if you'r happy with that then so be it. don't moan when our representative teams have to pay their own way to compete o/seas.

 

lots of people already paying their own way from what I hear.

 

My understanding is that see league prize money is down to the league sponsors / organisers, who are not PPA. I'm pretty sure PPA did not have anything to do with my Cyclelab vouchers. PPA are facilitators for the funride / race and organise marshalls, safety aspects, deal with racetec etc. The league, league standings and prizes, prize giving, leaders jerseys etc - none of this is managed by PPA.

 

Please go ahead and put me right on the above. If this is not the case I'm interested to know how it works.

[madmarc]

What really sucks is that neither CSA or the PPA see their way clear to assist a really talented cyclist that wants to broaden her horizons, in order to qualify for the World Track Championships, Commonwealth Games and Olympics.

She does not ask for hundreds of thousands of Rands (hell, I'm sure these fatcats spend more than what she is asking for on one function / meal.) The answer is flatly "NO, we do not have the funds to assist you. "

 

and the same for BMX. the world champs are coming up in New Zealand soon, every single parent of every single rider is currently working their butts off trying to raise funds. Where is the money CSA????? Maybe they gave it to Skizo!!!! haha

[Lucky Luke.]

The phrase the "best of a bad bunch" comes to mind here. On that PPA still even get my Vote! But:

 

Lets consider:

 

1. This high court application - which lawyer or legal firms are working on this are they on the PPA EXCO or connected to PPA EXCO members in any way and are they charging any fee? If they are not on the EXCO then PPA application has more credibility too me! If they are on the EXCO but receiving Zero remuneration - PPA credibility still 100% intact, my opinion. If are on the EXCO and charging any fee - even if claim to be substantially reduce (did PPA get other quote) - then the PPA credibility is already 50% out the window in my opinion! As posted earlier on the hub "Well, if you think business class travel is expensive, wait til you see the cost of this High Court action. There goes all our CSA and PPA membership fees ... " We the cyclist / members of both or 1 will ultimately have reductions in services due to less finance from either CSA or PPA. Some may argue CSA does not provide any service anyway - but maybe those some are just not beneficiaries of that service!

 

2. PPA has a large bank account mainly due to 1 event which they are 50% profit share in i.e. the Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay cycle tour. I think we can all agree on 1 thing here this is a road cycling event - where some our view may differ is this a tour as the name suggest - a fun ride or a race? If you have asked anybody what was you time in this event or been asked what your time was and answered - I would steer towards this been a race as been the most appropriate adjective to describe the event. Others may or may not agree. So how much of this 50% profits goes back from PPA into road cycling and or racing? In terms of racing very little - it use to be more like when the Giro del Capo was hosted by PPA. In term of road cycling not a great deal either. Surely at least 50% of this should be going directly back into into road cycling - from road safety, road fun rides and even road racing?

 

3. PPA until last year was investing over R200 000.00 per month in unit trust - now been moved into a separate trust which PPA is a beneficiary off. Over the course of the past number of years this money has grown substantially! As current or ex PPA members we really should be asking why PPA see it necessary to have such a large reserve fund - and why is it not been spent on cycling annually? We are PPA member now and should get maximum benefit for our membership while we are members - correct. Yes to have adequate reserve funding for the association to exist for 1 year after they have received their last cent from membership is prudent - but does it really need to be more than this? Can we seriously say all that need to be done for cycling is been done for cycling - if so then PPA is doing the right thing by just been a "cycling bank" if not then we as members are been short changed. I as a road racing cyclist would like to see more racing taking place in the WP - WPCA has just done a stunning job of putting on a winter series of event and I have been lead to believe that the prize fund now stand at about R20 000.00 to be handed out soon. Why does PPA see fit to hand out R200 gift voucher for Cannel walk if you win a PPA league event - is that not just showing the racing members a complete lack of respect?

 

Now I know the true fun rider will say PPA is a Fun ride association and why should they do anything for the racing cyclist?

 

A.A few answers / questions - PPA constitution states "The main purpose and object of the association is to promote cycling and the interests of cyclists" surely this statement does not exclude the racing cyclist?

 

B. Do none of the Fun rider watch the Tour de France / similar races - it only happens because its a race! Note its called a tour just like the cycle tour - not Race de France - but who we kidding if we think TDF isn't a race! Would it not be nice to see more RSA riders in this / these events?

 

C. The PPA league riders offer the league fun ride organizers some form of guarantee of entry on the day regardless of the weather as they, for the past number of season, have paid for the full series entry upfront.

 

D.With many of the league riders come other family members who also participate in the fun rides be it the shorter route.

 

E. How many of the "fun rider" look at the winning time and compare their time with that of the winner?

 

F. If for argument sake WPCA organized spring and summer league racing on the same day as PPA event - would PPA give the racing body (WPCA) their blessing? I cannot answer this but I expect not as PPA would possibly run the risk of the road fun ride no longer be financially viable for the fun ride organizer due to the reduced entry. So if this is the case then Why does PPA not just also do racing properly "a necessary evil" they certainly have the money to do it properly - maybe then CSA / gov would be siding a little more with PPA! As high lighted in this post "Pro cycling is going, it's just not going well."

 

These 2 statements are very true - and I hope my question asked in point 1 leaves PPA credibility 100% intact.

 

"Both organisations do a really lot of good work for the sport. and they both need each other. the ppa can't operate in a vacuum. the csa want them to be part of the sport's structures. as an affiliate looking after recreational cycling. just like running each participant in an event should be licensed thru a club/association/or whatever."

 

 

"It is just a pity that 2 governing bodies wants to fight it out in court spending large sums of money which could have gone towards the development of cycling"

 

Thanks Peter, interesting as always.

 

In my opinion PPA has a duty to all cyclists, competitive or otherwise to spend a substantial amount of this money on driver / cyclist education and improving safety on our roads, whether that be lobbying for more cycling lanes, teaching kids to ride in traffic or promoting more tolerant and safer driving - many different ways to do it.

 

The status quo with 200k per month going into investments whilst cyclists die every week on our roads with mind-numbing regularity, and our brightest cycling talent is no longer with us due to driver negligence - this is not good enough.

 

The Argus is the source of most of this cash. An event born out of highlighting cycling safety. Ironically the start of the Argus Silly Season is now usually marked by a rapid increase in cyclists being hit by cars, somewhere around October / November as inexperienced riders flock to the roads. There's usually no let up until the event is over, and even then it seems we still have weekly cyclist deaths on the road.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Lucky Luke.

[The Guy in Pink]

Lets not forget how this started. PPA was around long before CSA, when CSA was formed they first took out the VCA and GPPA then tried their luck with PPA but bit off a bit more than they could chew. I hope PPA tie them up in litigation untill the end of time. I have no doubt this will end up in the constitutional court, and i'm no lawyer but i think CSA will lose.

 

I still have my SACF (CSA) Licence from 1967 , and the SACF (CSA) hd existed forever before that, so the CSA is much older thn the PPA.

[American Flyers]

PPA investing R200 000 per month..

Wow! Enough money:-

- to send riders to overseas

- better prize money in leagues

 

I feel PPA should work under CSA and improve our future!

 

 

[dirtrider]

PPA investing R200 000 per month..

Wow! Enough money:-

- to send riders to overseas

- better prize money in leagues

 

I feel PPA should work under CSA and improve our future!

 

And improve WHAT ?? When CSA gets involved with anything it turns into a clown fest

[madmarc]

I still have my SACF (CSA) Licence from 1967 , and the SACF (CSA) hd existed forever before that, so the CSA is much older thn the PPA.

 

I'm referring to CSA in it's current form, which is far different from the old SACF. The major difference today is that SACF was there mainly for pro cycling, they had very little to do with the recreational cyclist. Today CSA is climbing into recreational cycling because they know it's the cash cow. Financial gain is the driver, not betterment of the sport. What improvement has CSA done on cycling events or cycling in general for the recreational cyclists. Nothing; nadda Zip, only forced us to pay for recreational lic. and forced events organizors to pay their fees. That is tantamount to extortion in mu book. I go back to my original statement about CSA being another government lap dog imposing a hidden tax on mass participation sport. I wonder when the will start with the golfing fraternity on golf days. We wait in anticipation for GSA to be formed.

[Brogue]

I'm referring to CSA in it's current form, which is far different from the old SACF. The major difference today is that SACF was there mainly for pro cycling, they had very little to do with the recreational cyclist. Today CSA is climbing into recreational cycling because they know it's the cash cow. Financial gain is the driver, not betterment of the sport. What improvement has CSA done on cycling events or cycling in general for the recreational cyclists. Nothing; nadda Zip, only forced us to pay for recreational lic. and forced events organizors to pay their fees. That is tantamount to extortion in mu book. I go back to my original statement about CSA being another government lap dog imposing a hidden tax on mass participation sport. I wonder when the will start with the golfing fraternity on golf days. We wait in anticipation for GSA to be formed.

 

Agreed, CSA does NOTHING for anyone except rake in fees it feels entitled to as the "governing body" of cycling in RSA. I get absolutely ZERO benefit from my CSA membership, other than the so-called privilege (for which I have to pay) of being able to enter fun-rides in provinces other than the Western Cape. CSA need a taai klap, and methinks PPA is about to give it to them via the High Court Application.

[American Flyers]

 

 

And improve WHAT ?? When CSA gets involved with anything it turns into a clown fest

Good Points!

I will support PPA, if they give us better prize money in the league races..... What is wrong with them?