CSA / PPA. The Heat is on

[milky4130]

"The sad loss of a high profile cyclist has done far more for public awareness than any other campaign. For example PPA: spending R200 000 on a UCT student to try and establish what should be the required overtaking distance to a cyclist; "

 

 

Are you serious, did this really happen? Why reinvent the wheel when it's already in place all over Europe!

[MRT1]

In reply to Icycling . It is amazing to me that you as a “Pro”cyclist seem to think that the WPCA can continue to put on league races with more and more prize money. You obviously do not know how they were able to do this for the winter league .These races were put on by volunteers sacrificing their time so that you could race. That is why they were able to have that kind of prize money. It seems you as a pro cyclist would like more volunteers to be passionate about your sport so that you can earn more prize money while you participate in your sport and they do the work. In fact it actually costs the volunteers money to get to these events and the meetings they need to organise them etc. How’s this for an idea take some of your prize money and give it back to the WPCA so that they can send the youth and development teams to the youth festival.

[(Deon)]

"The sad loss of a high profile cyclist has done far more for public awareness than any other campaign. For example PPA: spending R200 000 on a UCT student to try and establish what should be the required overtaking distance to a cyclist; "

 

 

Are you serious, did this really happen? Why reinvent the wheel when it's already in place all over Europe!

 

..and said UCT student googled the question and the question was answered and the day was good.

 

[gogo@]

Would like to see the comparison between the income and expenditure statements of CSA, 94.7 and PPA.

 

These are public documents. You should look for them, then make your comparison. PPA regularly sends out newsletters to members in which they tell you how to apply to funds for projects and what they are spending money on. Does CSA do this for its members? People don't even seem to know what the basic costs to event organisers are.

What happens to this money? Most people riding events are, whether you like it or not, not classified as "racing" cyclists (they have neither domestic nor recreational licenses). And if you want to grow the sport, that is where you're looking for new entrants. It is these people who are being "taxed" at R35 per event and primarily for CSA's benefit. For them, CSA is asking R41 (R35+RR6); of this R26 goes to CSA, R10 to the provincial body, R5 to the organisers. This is possibly ok if you are running an established event with a large field, but if you are not, if your numbers are small, your pool of potential riders are price-sensitive and you are taking the risk of running a new event with all the costs associated, then this does not work.

I wouldn't be so interested in all this if I saw something going back into local cycling development, but this seems to be left to clubs, and in areas where cycling is not strong (i.e. where you might want to see development) clubs are obviously not strong either... yet CSA is asking clubs to reach out to support cycling development in their areas. Without a strong club environment, this cannot happen. I'm not even sure that clubs should be the chosen vehicle for this -- which is where a body like PPA comes in.

The focus for developing cycling is multi-faceted. It's not just about races. Everybody who races has to train. Obviously this involves using public roads, so you are in the same space as me, the leisure cyclist, the cycling commuter, and everyone else on a bike, not to mention vehicles. (I shouldn't have to point this out, but the issue of safe cycling seems to get knocked out of the equation.) Further, to support the cycling industry, you need a broad base of consumers buying entry level equipment, getting hooked on cycling and moving up the chain as their interest is sustained. This is why people, who see the picture beyond the racing scene, are seeing a major difference between CSA and the PPA. It is about so much more than pro races, national colours and international competitiveness.

I looked at CSA financial statements which are on their website. What I found was, to me, strange. It's difficult to see actually what they are spending money on, especially at a provincial/regional level. And they seem to be sitting on a little bit of money.

I'm familiar with how non-profits work and can read financial statements, but maybe I needed to look at CSAs statements more carefully. How about someone with a proper brain for this has a look and tells us what they think? I've attached the latest set if you'd like to do so.

CSA Balance sheet june 2012.pdf

CSA income st yr to 06 12 no2.pdf

CSA income st yr to 06 12.pdf

[gogo@]

To add to what I said above. If I play in my local club squash tournament, am I obliged to take out a day license to do so?

I think the problem is that cycling is such a broad church (even broader than many other sports) whereas CSA is trying to squeeze everyone into one queue going past the same cash register. If they want to do that, then they need to take on the priorities and principles of the PPA, look at them carefully and possibly broaden them further.

[carbon29er]

Thats where we may differ - PPA money or money PPA has from the Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay cycle tour?

 

I am a roadie - done 30 Cycles tours - I don't ride MTB or BMX - I would like to see at 50 % of the cycle tour money end back in the road cycling community!

 

Please list what extra PPA is doing for road riding / racing. I above have already list their spending on road safety and really not a lot or enough!

18,000 PPA members, a mention here of about 150 "pro" racers.

 

Do the maths, any money spent on racing is a bonus!

 

I love the entitled attitude, because I race I should participate disproportionately in the money paid out by 18,000 members and another 17,000 Argus participants.

 

Shouldn't your gripe be with CSA and how little CSA does for your prize money? Rather than the air of entitlement to a better deal from the PPA at the expense of the other 17,850 members?

[slabs]

To add to what I said above. If I play in my local club squash tournament, am I obliged to take out a day license to do so?

I think the problem is that cycling is such a broad church (even broader than many other sports) whereas CSA is trying to squeeze everyone into one queue going past the same cash register. If they want to do that, then they need to take on the priorities and principles of the PPA, look at them carefully and possibly broaden them further.

 

Exactly my comments regarding sports in other clubs... what most are missing is that whenever SASCOC has got involved in any sport it has been a shambles. Have a listen to the following podcast from Graeme Joffe. There has been much controversy in athletics, swimming to name a few sports.

 

http://joffers19899....T10_11_22-07_00 from about 16:30

 

Maybe the only difference regarding PPA is that they profess to be a level below a club and promote the "funride" concept to get people involved in cycling. In my mind and any other social rider they are still only an avenue to ride a number of events per year. And lately they have been very involved in cycling safety, building MTB trails giving members discounts to ride, and some other initiatives.

 

That said keep the money grabbers away from it

Edited June 14, 2013 by slabs

[Icycling]

18,000 PPA members, a mention here of about 150 "pro" racers.

 

Do the maths, any money spent on racing is a bonus!

 

I love the entitled attitude, because I race I should participate disproportionately in the money paid out by 18,000 members and another 17,000 Argus participants.

 

Shouldn't your gripe be with CSA and how little CSA does for your prize money? Rather than the air of entitlement to a better deal from the PPA at the expense of the other 17,850 members?

 

18 000 members - avg fun ride between 1000 and 1500, when 1500 normally has a league ride attached. League entry about 300 each season! Which are the most committed riders?

[Velouria]

18 000 members - avg fun ride between 1000 and 1500, when 1500 normally has a league ride attached. League entry about 300 each season! Which are the most committed riders?

 

The guy who rides to work everyday, come rain or shine, because his bike is his only means of transport, and he is the only breadwinner in his family. For him cycling is not something he does for fun, it's a means to improve his life. That's the most committed rider.

 

Whizzing along a tar road in tight lycra 5 times a season and then demanding prize money and a percentage of the entrance fee of the rest of the participants, all in the name of fun, isn't committed - it's poncey and brattish. When did we go from a slap on the back, a handshake and bragging rights to demanding prize money? Do you honestly think that the other "recreational pro's" who don't finish on the podium race for prize money at a league event, or for the thrill of just racing each other?

 

No wonder mountain biking is doing so well in this country - people just want to ride their bikes and have fun. Sani2C attracted 7500 riders, of which maybe 40 had aspirations of prize money. Win a 24hr race, and you get a bottle of wine and a pair of socks, but it's the experience we take away that's priceless.

 

And I'll bet this - PPA will find the (directly or indirectly) the next Burry before CSA does.

[madmarc]

Okay, so after all said and done. Lots of different opinions, we have haters and lovers of CSA. One thing for certain there is common ground that the sport needs a controlling body on both the pro & recreational level. Currently we have the CSA, which is not really cutting the mustard, and deemed to be the playground bully.

 

So! if cyclists (Pro & recreational level) and event organizers had to make a whishlist of what they want from a controlling body in return for their money they are forced to pay, how or what would be on that list.

[dirtrider]

Get involved in recreational cycling as well .

[Dustbug]

The bottom line is that in order to participate in international and Olympic sport we are required by the international controlling bodies to have one representative body and that is CSA via SASCOC under the DEPT of Sport and Recreation.., CSA like any other body requires funding and like all other national bodies it is levied on a tiered base with all registered participants in that sport paying their share. PPA's assistance with the initial creation and funding of CSA is greatly appreciated but historically their not attending the initial inauguration etc of CSA and not voting indicates another agenda which I would be interested to see what it was and is about and what the issues where if someone can post it. We must remember it is CSA's job to act at national and international level , your province must act at provincial level so don't decry CSA as having done nothing for your province it is not their job as such but then again where would the epic and cross country or our road riders now in Europe be without UCI ranking status and opportunity to gain points locally be if CSA didn't work towards that, had our riders only been able to get points overseas we would not have had as many riders in the last Olympics due to competition levels and cost. South Africa has many challenges and funding is limited and as we all know administration is expensive, but to maintain levels and standards you need the structures, controls minimium requirements , commissars etc . If you don't wont to contribute don't, go and ride your occasional fun ride and see how boring they soon become with the same minimum standards and limited technicality, limited routes etc.etc. The fact that you are participating in events that require contribution to CSA indicates you are wanting to participate at a high level and to do that you need to accept you are now entering the levels of the sport that assist at contributing to national and international participation. PPA needs to negotiate in fact maybe all the provincial unions need with PPA to sit down and set up a standardised provincial system and structure with uniformity and some of the less populated and smaller provinces may need cross subsidisation etc but don't start risking our international capabilities over a few national and local issues , for every problem there is a solution if all parties are willing, It appears this latest action is initiated by PPA so please PPA what exactly are your issues I would be interested to see a historical time line of issues offered solutions and outcomes and on going issues and proposed solutions and what is acceptable and what is not so we are all able to understand properly, without full disclosure and understanding the other provinces cannot see if they need to supply support to PPA or look at adopting some of the principals etc or if they think PPA is only after looking after its own prestige etc..come on guys open the books and lets see the whole story please..oh and leave historical pettiness out of it, its history and cannot be changed now. It/they can however be replaced, be worked on and acceptable structures etc instituted with understanding.

[Icycling]

In reply to Icycling . It is amazing to me that you as a “Pro”cyclist seem to think that the WPCA can continue to put on league races with more and more prize money. You obviously do not know how they were able to do this for the winter league .These races were put on by volunteers sacrificing their time so that you could race. That is why they were able to have that kind of prize money. It seems you as a pro cyclist would like more volunteers to be passionate about your sport so that you can earn more prize money while you participate in your sport and they do the work. In fact it actually costs the volunteers money to get to these events and the meetings they need to organise them etc. How’s this for an idea take some of your prize money and give it back to the WPCA so that they can send the youth and development teams to the youth festival.

 

Lets use the analogy of private business and government here! Lets call PPA business and CSA government and lets face it that is actually what it is!

 

Does private business pay tax? YES and probably about 30%. Does PPA pay tax - NO

 

Why does PPA not pay tax - well if I recall it is listed as a section 21 company (it may be VAT registered) - a company for non profit! So why does PPA have million in the bank / investments and still expect not to pay tax?

 

As has been said on many occasion in this thread CSA is after PPA money - probably 100% on the mark. Why would the government not want tax from a company which is making / has money? This in not only in RSA but world wide!

 

On the plus side at least if for argument sake PPA did willingly give say 30% of their annual non spend on cycling (units trust is not cycling nor is buying property or taking CSA to court) to CSA then PPA at least knows the money is still staying in cycling circles - 1 up on the normal tax payer - as we don't know where the money is generally going and how much is really been waisted! Of what goes to CSA 50% would / should remain in the WP (this is what happens with ride rider levies) leg of CSA i.e. WPCA already noted to be volunteers! 50% would be used nationally also in the thread pointed out that more than 50% of The Cape Argus Pick ' N PAy cycle tour consist of riders from out of Cape Town so why shouldn't some of these fund be pumped back into their communities via the national body - CSA.

 

PPA only has excess cash because of 1 road cycling event / RACE the Cape Argus Pick 'n Pay cycle tour - without it they would not have been able to save so much money - anyone who looks at the books would be able to see that. Before 50% of the profits of the cycle tour went back into PPA - PPA were not able to save money, originally PPA received 10% of the entry and owned the event, but due to a year or 2 of negotiation with Rotary PPA negotiated a 50 /50 ownership agreement along with a 50/50 profit share. I was part of these negotiation and certainly did not spend this time to see a fair portion of this money just to be spent on UNIT trust

 

All this is happening because of PPA's inability to spend their annual income and on a whole cycling in RSA could be doing a whole allot better. IF PPA did not have any money it would not be a huge issue! I am not suggesting anything should be taken away from any other part of cycling currently spend to help "The Pro." I am suggesting that money could also be spent on "the Pro" along with other cycling projects from the money which is been saved. Saved and for what?

 

On a side note I am a member of PPA and have been for 31 years! I may choose not to join the association again, so why have I not received full benefits while I have been a member? What do I mean by this - well PPA have managed to save millions of rands over the years which could have been put back into cycling at the time - which would have directly or indirectly benefitted me! Why should possible benefits which PPA could be offering to cycling now be used in the future when I may not be a member or even a cyclist / alive? I do see merit in PPA having reserve funding for 1 year but thats really as far as it should go!

 

Yes 31years back I would have loved a youth festival! Instead I paid my own way to the Eric van Enter which is the closest thing they had at the time - then PPA also was not sitting on huge sums of money.

[Brogue]

PPA haters make me chuckle. I happen to have a CSA license, but ONLY coz I partcipate in so-called sanctioned events outside of the Western Cape as well. It's a bit of a cheek for CSA to insist every kid, oom, tannie , ouma and oupa who enjoys participating in an event once every blue moon should be compelled to cough up 75 bucks annually for the privilege of doing so. Health shouldn't be held to ransom, which is exactly what CSA are doing.

 

To all those crying foul about "prize money", HTFU. What's more important, a few hundred bucks when you happen to hit a podium on a exceptional day, or benevolence? CSA can shove their sanctioned events. League and Elite riders will be the first to bleat to CSA about the loss of the Cycle Tour, the multitude of associated seeding events and prestige that these bring to their fragile egos. Playground bullies need a snotklap, and the PPA is up to the task!

Edited June 14, 2013 by Brogue

[gogo@]

We must remember it is CSA's job to act at national and international level , your province must act at provincial level

This is true, very true -- but it's not really that simple.

It goes back to what I said about how strong your club structure is, and what kind of people with what interests are involved at the club level. Which is why I say running one system through CSA which covers such a broad church of issues and interest, and squeezing it the way CSA is with its particular constitution and agenda, does not work. And also why I say more of us need to find out what's going on and get involved, one way or another.

Getting involved means thinking about how cycling works in this country -- it's not a sport like golf or even soccer, although many sporting codes have similar problems like access to venues. And I'd love to know how recreational cycling and "fun" rides are run, in relation to national sports bodies in the UK and Oz, say.

You also say that "PPA needs to negotiate". If my memory is right, and I'm sure it is, this has also been part of the problem. From the start (when one, unified cycling association was being negotiated and the constitution set up) PPA was involved in these negotiations and has been all along. Eventually an agreement was reached and a constitution written up to reflect that. CSA later changed the constitution. Their "right" to do so was on the basis of representatives, and even though PPA represents a large number of cyclists, both in the Western Cape and elsewhere, their vote does not reflect the number of members that they have.

I really don't know how this should work, but it clearly is not working the way it is right now. Do you think PPA is really that frivolous to take the CSA to court? It would be like saying each province in this country has one vote for President of SA, so forget how many people live there. Would you sit back if SA's Constitution was changed against your interests which have been written into it?

I hope PPA Exco, or someone with proper info and insight, does come along, correct what I may have got wrong here, and answer some of these questions. But where too is CSA's voice in this?

[Icycling]

The guy who rides to work everyday, come rain or shine, because his bike is his only means of transport, and he is the only breadwinner in his family. For him cycling is not something he does for fun, it's a means to improve his life. That's the most committed rider.

 

Whizzing along a tar road in tight lycra 5 times a season and then demanding prize money and a percentage of the entrance fee of the rest of the participants, all in the name of fun, isn't committed - it's poncey and brattish. When did we go from a slap on the back, a handshake and bragging rights to demanding prize money? Do you honestly think that the other "recreational pro's" who don't finish on the podium race for prize money at a league event, or for the thrill of just racing each other?

 

No wonder mountain biking is doing so well in this country - people just want to ride their bikes and have fun. Sani2C attracted 7500 riders, of which maybe 40 had aspirations of prize money. Win a 24hr race, and you get a bottle of wine and a pair of socks, but it's the experience we take away that's priceless.

 

And I'll bet this - PPA will find the (directly or indirectly) the next Burry before CSA does.

 

I started cycling back in 1983 (10 years old at the time) to ride the then Argus Cycle tour - my older brother came home from school and announced he wanted to to this event! So my father who even won the Argus cycle tour and myself decided we would also start cycling!

 

Part of my training and my independence in life became my bicycle - I use to ride to school (this at the time was a big portion of my training), post schooling studies and even to work - I work in the Strand and lived in Constantia! (60km commute each way). I no longer study and work from home - but I still do cycle! I have 2 half sister on my fathers side - he has never let them ride on the roads - as he feels the roads are way to un safe to cycle on - PPA has failed (maybe with what ever amount of resource they had they could not have succeeded) the cycling community in keeping the roads safe, which I agree should be their main Priority!

 

I don't have any children of my own but I do see far fewer kids riding to school and back - if you have children do you allow them to commute via bicycle to school - if not why not?