DJR Posted April 22, 2014 Share Personally, I'd like lines much further down the alphabet...... Danger Dassie and Stretch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Engine Posted April 22, 2014 Share Some very good points here but here is one more. If you trying to grow XCO then you also need to allow B and or C lines for the novice who is trying there hand at it and hopefully will someday be able to take the A lines. Or you will never get people to give it a bash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolipoli Posted April 22, 2014 Share B and C lines are great, but I cannot see that a rider without a full compliment of skills and fitness should be on the podium.XCO is supposed to be a test of everything.Strong technical and weak fitness should also not be on the podium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommernet Posted April 23, 2014 Share The B and C lines in my opinion is the only way we can get the youngsters 13 - 17 to get exposure in the XCO arena, this is where our future Olympians will start without these they will undoubtedly not be able to compete and gravitate towards the already overcrowded "Marathon" races, the Schools Spur series has done an awesome job at exposing the sport to school kids without making it impossible to compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goya-goya Posted April 23, 2014 Share Not every course is identical... and I think that is awsum... each rider has their set of skills... sometimes the course suits you... sometimes not.... Technical Skills... some people need them to make up for the fact that they are not a true athlete... for someone to take 5 seconds on anyone in less than 200metres of non-technical racing means they weren't in it to start with! Hiding behind the fact that you can do "technical" stuff because you are not proficient enough to compete does not make you podium worthy.  Its like in football... if you're not fit... you can complete until your tired... then it just gets laughable when the rest are not yet tired... Roadies are real athletes... they don't hide behind anything... its just you and your body... not "technical" sections to rest... just hardcore nuts-against-the-glass... nowhere to hide! I would like to see more XCO races... some that favour technical riding and some that favour proper athletes... its all good... PS... Should we also have a chickenrun "Shortcut" for slower riders? :clap: GO LANCE GO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted April 23, 2014 Share Probably a rehash of what has been said but: B and C lines are needed for progression. 10 seconds is a lot in XCO - 3 x10 tech "penalties" per lap is huge. Age is also a factor - as you get older the appetite for risk drops. Fit but not tech should not win - tech but not fit should not win. A bit like duathlon - a good runnner/rider combo wins not one that is super fast at one and slow at the other. SA is not easier when it comes to XCO. My unofficial count was about 90% of global riders thought PMB was a daunting track to ride at world XCO champs last year. or at least more daunting than their usual provincial/national races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelhicks Posted April 23, 2014 Share And if you think so, how much should the time penalty be for taking the chicken run? Firstly, I feel there should not be chicken runs(you can walk) but if there is, the time penalty per chicken run should be at least 15 seconds. Some backgroundHaving competed at provincial & national events seeing a lot of riders opting for the chicken run repeatedly(which hardly penalise, maybe 3- 5 seconds) and then ends up on the podium to be crowned a champion at a XCO event does not sound right to me - but that's my opinion and I actually want to hear what others think. Before you post, just think for a moment the hours and hours that a true XCO rider has to put in in order to master those XCO skills and the repeated risk every lap at every obstacle while racing - so the question is risk vs time-penalty - what is justified and fair? Let's have a healthy constructive discussion.  Firstly welcome to the Hub ... hope you enjoy the banter.  Firstly let me just argue with Nolipoli quickly .... then i will discuss what we do at World Cups vs Nationals and then Provincials here in KZN. What the vision is and why its done.   Like in DH, a chicken line should IMHO slow a rider down enough that they cannot be in contention for a podium, especially if it is a provincial level race. There has to be a decent incentive to take the risky lines.This is XCO, a test of endurance AND skill.Otherwise they can go and race XCM, on jeep track and district roads. I disagree - especially at a Provincial level - this is your base for new riders to progress so the time penalties need to be just great enough to penalise a rider to the point that they loose a bit but do not feel the absolute need to take the A-line to save time - If this is the case then you fall into a situation like at Masters Worlds XC last year when okes were ending themselves over something that was reserved for proper skilled riders - also it needs to be said that this is also a South African rider EGO issue - and we ALL need to stop thinking we are better than we are and know our limits - but the crux is ......... a B - or C line at Provincial or even National should not put you out of contention for a podium! (a win maybe - but a podium .. NO)  --------------------------------  Right on to what we do. There are a number of issues to keep in mind  1. Level of event - Regional vs Nationals vs InternationalRegional - at a regional event this is the breading ground for new riders to test their wits and skills on XCO and DH courses - you need to have the tracks testing enough, but not too harsh - so that it can cater for all riders skill and strengths - In this regard B - and C- lines are a MUST - In XC - Nick Floros' magic number is about 10 seconds for a B -line and 15 sec for a C- line if necessary.In DH - I use (dependant on track length) a 2 to 3 second penalty for a B-line. Basically in both instances this means that you loose a bit - but if you are good elsewhere on the track you can still be in the game - also it helps froma safety aspect with new riders not being pushed to try stuff that is out of their league. Also it opens the books a bit more whereby a rider can take one section fast cant just do that every lap etc and win because of it ... you need to be strong over the entire track. NATIONALSAt this level you have generally raced for a bit and have some knowledge of whats happening.HOWEVER - B- and C-lines are still necessary as the tracks intensity has increased at this level with either more technical sections or jumps or whatever - in this instance alternate lines need to be added for riders suce as the Ladies and sprogs and sub-vets, vets and masters, some of whom may not be comfortable taking some of the harder lines.Again - there is NO SHAME in taking a b-line ...The time gaps at this level are also set similar to that of the provincials with 10 to 15 sec on XC and 3 to 5 sec on DH ...But again it is a safety aspect through and through. INTERNATIONALEven at this level you need alternative lines. We saw at the world cup this year - some of the ladies in both the XC and DH utilising B-lines around the Treehouse rock garden in the XC and Dr Evil and Jugs Big one on the DH ...So even at a level where you have riders who have gained enough points to enter a World Cup - some may not be comfortable with a section. Also B- and C-lines assist in XC when if there has been a crash in one line then riders can use other lines to pass. Also in the wet A-lines through rock gardens may be trecherous and therefore the UCI actually insist on the insertion of alternative lines in case of weather issues. Hope this makes it clear. REMEMBER THERE IS NO SHAME IN TAKING A B-LINE - it will be faster than crashing on something on the A-Line that you are not comfortable with. CheersNige RockCoach and Danger Dassie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rata Del Spruit Posted April 23, 2014 Share Not every course is identical... and I think that is awsum... each rider has their set of skills... sometimes the course suits you... sometimes not.... Technical Skills... some people need them to make up for the fact that they are not a true athlete... for someone to take 5 seconds on anyone in less than 200metres of non-technical racing means they weren't in it to start with! Hiding behind the fact that you can do "technical" stuff because you are not proficient enough to compete does not make you podium worthy. Its like in football... if you're not fit... you can complete until your tired... then it just gets laughable when the rest are not yet tired... Roadies are real athletes... they don't hide behind anything... its just you and your body... not "technical" sections to rest... just hardcore nuts-against-the-glass... nowhere to hide! I would like to see more XCO races... some that favour technical riding and some that favour proper athletes... its all good... PS... Should we also have a chickenrun "Shortcut" for slower riders? :clap: GO LANCE GO!! So you're saying XCO should be a road race? You know, they already have those… on roads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted April 23, 2014 Share Firstly welcome to the Hub ... hope you enjoy the banter. Firstly let me just argue with Nolipoli quickly .... then i will discuss what we do at World Cups vs Nationals and then Provincials here in KZN. What the vision is and why its done.    I disagree - especially at a Provincial level - this is your base for new riders to progress so the time penalties need to be just great enough to penalise a rider to the point that they loose a bit but do not feel the absolute need to take the A-line to save time - If this is the case then you fall into a situation like at Masters Worlds XC last year when okes were ending themselves over something that was reserved for proper skilled riders - also it needs to be said that this is also a South African rider EGO issue - and we ALL need to stop thinking we are better than we are and know our limits - but the crux is ......... a B - or C line at Provincial or even National should not put you out of contention for a podium! (a win maybe - but a podium .. NO)  --------------------------------  Right on to what we do. There are a number of issues to keep in mind 1. Level of event - Regional vs Nationals vs InternationalRegional - at a regional event this is the breading ground for new riders to test their wits and skills on XCO and DH courses - you need to have the tracks testing enough, but not too harsh - so that it can cater for all riders skill and strengths - In this regard B - and C- lines are a MUST - In XC - Nick Floros' magic number is about 10 seconds for a B -line and 15 sec for a C- line if necessary.In DH - I use (dependant on track length) a 2 to 3 second penalty for a B-line. Basically in both instances this means that you loose a bit - but if you are good elsewhere on the track you can still be in the game - also it helps froma safety aspect with new riders not being pushed to try stuff that is out of their league. Also it opens the books a bit more whereby a rider can take one section fast cant just do that every lap etc and win because of it ... you need to be strong over the entire track. NATIONALSAt this level you have generally raced for a bit and have some knowledge of whats happening.HOWEVER - B- and C-lines are still necessary as the tracks intensity has increased at this level with either more technical sections or jumps or whatever - in this instance alternate lines need to be added for riders suce as the Ladies and sprogs and sub-vets, vets and masters, some of whom may not be comfortable taking some of the harder lines.Again - there is NO SHAME in taking a b-line ...The time gaps at this level are also set similar to that of the provincials with 10 to 15 sec on XC and 3 to 5 sec on DH ...But again it is a safety aspect through and through. INTERNATIONALEven at this level you need alternative lines. We saw at the world cup this year - some of the ladies in both the XC and DH utilising B-lines around the Treehouse rock garden in the XC and Dr Evil and Jugs Big one on the DH ...So even at a level where you have riders who have gained enough points to enter a World Cup - some may not be comfortable with a section. Also B- and C-lines assist in XC when if there has been a crash in one line then riders can use other lines to pass. Also in the wet A-lines through rock gardens may be trecherous and therefore the UCI actually insist on the insertion of alternative lines in case of weather issues. Hope this makes it clear. REMEMBER THERE IS NO SHAME IN TAKING A B-LINE - it will be faster than crashing on something on the A-Line that you are not comfortable with. CheersNige The Nigel has spoken /END RockCoach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DACoetzee Posted April 23, 2014 Share So it seems that everyone has their own opinion surrounding the time penalties, so here is my 2 cents. If you take 2 riders that do XCO in order to get a podium finish, the guys really going for 1st place will be at a skill level where he doesn't need to take the chicken run [or B and C line]. I think the chicken runs at a place like Thaba trails are fair because if you race Elite men [like I do] you need to go over those sections 6 times, and risking a fall will make the next few times super hard if you are missing some parts or injured and fatigued. The chicken runs are supposed to take longer, but making them almost 3 times as long is stupid [referring to the Tree-house at Cascades park].  Yes XCO is about skill and endurance, and if you are skilled and fit enough, you should be able to make up the time lost on taking the chicken run, but you can't make up time if it costs you a minute PER LAP like the Tree-house example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stretch Posted April 23, 2014 Share The B and C lines in my opinion is the only way we can get the youngsters 13 - 17 to get exposure in the XCO arena, this is where our future Olympians will start without these they will undoubtedly not be able to compete and gravitate towards the already overcrowded "Marathon" races, the Schools Spur series has done an awesome job at exposing the sport to school kids without making it impossible to compete. yes - as should we be sending our youngsters to compete in the U23 discipline on the world cup circuit. Have a look at the results i posted from the national xco series in this thread...we have some promising youngsters https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/138640-sa-national-xco-series-2-afriski/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted April 23, 2014 Share Roadies are real athletes... they don't hide behind anything... its just you and your body... not "technical" sections to rest... just hardcore nuts-against-the-glass... nowhere to hide! Urm does the word peleton mean anything to you? Roadies hide behind each other all day long. Cavendish sees on average 200m of wind... The only true road test is the ITT. nigelhicks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelhicks Posted April 23, 2014 Share @ Goya-Goya HMMM interesting comments and views - Rebuttal! Technical Skills... some people need them to make up for the fact that they are not a true athlete... for someone to take 5 seconds on anyone in less than 200metres of non-technical racing means they weren't in it to start with! - I think you are forgetting the fact of the matter that XCO (the topic of discussion here - NOT XCM) is designed to test BOTH technical as well as physical ability. Your comment basically says that unless you can cut it in a flat out road sprint against Lance on steroids ... you are not an athlete - so therefore you are saying that as Minnaar and clan only race downhill they are not athletes ... HMMMM ... did you see his Cape Epic and Sani2 C results in years past??? Hiding behind the fact that you can do "technical" stuff because you are not proficient enough to compete does not make you podium worthy. .... :eek: ... OK ... again I think these comments are a bit miss leading ... You say that many XC riders hide behind the fact that they are good in technical and suck at fitness - however in almost ALL XCO events technical sections make up only 20% of the track with lung busting climbs comprising 50% of the track ... OK .. that technical stuff really makes a difference so you dont need to be fit for the remaining 80% .. Roadies are real athletes... they don't hide behind anything... its just you and your body... not "technical" sections to rest... just hardcore nuts-against-the-glass... nowhere to hide! ... No where to hide??? Im sorry .. but you dont see any rider in ANY road race sitting on the front of the pack pulling the pelaton for 200km straight ... The ONLY instance a Roadie is "Not hiding behind anything" is in an individual time trial event. So if you think about it - the Individual timetrial for this years Tour De France is 54km - but the entire race is 3656Km (before ratifiaction - but close enough) ... so that means that the "NO WHERE TO HIDE" part of this epic road race is actually 1.5% (rounded up) of the race ... The rest of the time the riders can rest nicely in the peleton with their teams helping them during attacks etc and getting a nice draft from the rider in front ... HMMMM ... not saying they not immensely fit (and sometimes on juice) ... but HMMMM ....   hahahaha Just pulling the piss dude - any world level pro demands respect - but at the level we are talking of and the discipline - my previous post stands true Edited April 23, 2014 by nigelhicks Stretch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goya-goya Posted April 23, 2014 Share   So you're saying XCO should be a road race? You know, they already have those… on roads? You'll read what suits your opinion...  My actual intent was to show that fitness and strength are just as important as technical skill... If not more!  What I neglected to add was that fitness and strength is not something you can fix in 1 month of technical riding...  XCO is high HR.. Fullgass... Bat outta hell racing...  Without the fitness...no matter how many technical rests there are... You won't win!       Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rata Del Spruit Posted April 23, 2014 Share Technical Skills... some people need them to make up for the fact that they are not a true athlete... for someone to take 5 seconds on anyone in less than 200metres of non-technical racing means they weren't in it to start with! Hiding behind the fact that you can do "technical" stuff because you are not proficient enough to compete does not make you podium worthy. Roadies are real athletes... they don't hide behind anything... its just you and your body... not "technical" sections to rest... just hardcore nuts-against-the-glass... nowhere to hide! I've found your ultimate XCO course http://www.naperville.il.us/emplibrary/Track%20Aerial.jpg nigelhicks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanniri Posted April 23, 2014 Share Subsequent to checking the results of the last two XCO events on National level this whole debate seems like a storm in a teacup. Hardly anyone signs up for these events! My advice to Nigel is to keep doing what he is doing - get the young involved and grew it from there. Insofar Naas - I remember him opening the great skilled/unskilled debate and his skills workshop plans some time back on the hub. My perception then, and seems to be confirmed by his latest rant, is his desire is really to make his superior skills known than anything else. And to Goya-Goya: which banana peel did you arrive on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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