CycleOps SA and Tim Noakes Diet

[Fisan]

Arguing about who's right and who's wrong is useless. The Pro-Noakes-Oaks won't convince the Pasta-lovers to change sides and vice versa. Whether you are fat loving or pasta loving - good for you. We don't need scientific information to prove what works FOR YOU.

 

Maybe in ten years time there will be decent, long-term studies available to prove that LCHF works or not.

[walkerr]

In his letter, Noakes, a professor of exercise and sports science and head of the Sports Science Institute of SA, gave a scientific explanation why a low-fat diet had no proven role in the prevention of heart disease:

 

"As I wrote in Challenging Beliefs, a 2010 meta-analysis of studies involving 347 747 subjects, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, found 'no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of coronary heart disease or cardiovascular disease'.

 

"A 2011 report from the Cochrane Collaboration, an organisation that is independent of the pharmaceutical industry, found that 'there was no clear evidence for dietary fat changes on total mortality or cardiovascular mortality'. Thus the scientific evidence is clear: a low-fat diet has no proven role in the prevention of (coronary) heart disease. It is time that cardiologists began to teach this fact in our medical schools.

 

http://m.news24.com/...failed-20130210

 

 

 

There are other studies too - it has actually been disproven in many such studies that there is a link between ingested fats and heart disease.

 

Just because something is a long standing and popular myth does not make it true.

Edited August 22, 2014 by walkerr

[walkerr]

I still keep having to refer to my dad. On the diet for 6 months, has been on cholesterol meds for 10 years, and has been given the OK by his doc to stop taking the meds now, as he has improved that much.

 

Yes, this diet is clearly bad...

 

Good for your dad for ignoring all the bad science being pedalled and sticking to his guns. Statins are a much bigger evil than anything you'll encounter on a low carb diet - and cholesterol is not the enemy we have all been led to believe. Again, not my view, established in studies

Edited August 22, 2014 by walkerr

[walkerr]

I've been following a LCHF/Paleo diet for past 2 years and you'll be surprised how far you can go BUT I cannot go fast without carbs. This really sums it up for me.... "_{follow a LCHF diet when off the bike but drink carbohydrates before, during and after exercise to limit the negative effects on glycolysis.}"

 

This is the part in the CycleOps piece that also resonates with me - and some others I've ridden with. In my case though, I know I've not been fully fat adapted over the last few months. I was riding in a MTB team, and had to be careful of my personal needs and slowing the team down so I kept up some carbs, albeit way less than I'd have used prior. Now I'm purely solo again and only working on endurance events I'm going to knuckle down and get fully adapted. I still expect some top end power loss, but that doesn't bother me for long low intensity events. I will add some carbs back if I want to go quicker on a shorter event like Argus. But that's a long time off, so we'll see how it's working by then. I'll hopefully have 4 or 5 long distance rides under my wheels by then, and the 6 monthly blood panels to see what is going on inside.

Edited August 22, 2014 by walkerr

[walkerr]

Arguing about who's right and who's wrong is useless. The Pro-Noakes-Oaks won't convince the Pasta-lovers to change sides and vice versa. Whether you are fat loving or pasta loving - good for you. We don't need scientific information to prove what works FOR YOU.

 

Maybe in ten years time there will be decent, long-term studies available to prove that LCHF works or not.

 

Agreed that is the part really lacking - is full studies.

 

I don't really care what anyone else eats TBH. I was very reluctant and sceptical to try it myself. My beef is with the pedalling of flawed and sometimes non existent studies that claim to show the diet is bad, which could well be putting off those who would benefit from trying it. Anyone who is IR or borderline diabetes should be at least be considering it as a way to avoid going full blown Type 2.

 

I also don't give a stuff about Noakes himself - he's popularised LCHF, but he didn't invent it. He's certainly enjoying the spotlight and getting a lot of flak in the process, but beyond that he's just another advocate. The red bible is a godsend though (as is the Wheat Belly book) because it's a darned hard eating plan without some tasty recipes to follow.

 

My personal problem which I came to teh diet to solve is gradual and building intolerance to carbs after many hours on the bike. If it solves that and lets me perform at a decent level I'll be a happy rider. If not, I'm gonna enjoy that first bowl of pasta!

 

As you say - we all need to find what works for us.

[jcza]

This is the part in the CycleOps piece that also resonates with me - and some others I've ridden with. In my case though, I know I've not been fully fat adapted over the last few months. I was riding in a MTB team, and had to be careful of my personal needs and slowing the team down so I kept up some carbs, albeit way less than I'd have used prior. Now I'm purely solo again and only working on endurance events I'm going to knuckle down and get fully adapted. I still expect some top end power loss, but that doesn't bother me for long low intensity events. I will add some carbs back if I want to go quicker on a shorter event like Argus. But that's a long time off, so we'll see how it's working by then. I'll hopefully have 4 or 5 long distance rides under my wheels by then, and the 6 monthly blood panels to see what is going on inside.

Very similar story here. Raced no carb for a couple of months but went backwards. I added carbs and I am going faster again but fuel (carb) consumption is much better.

[Grantc]

walkerr - I'll be following your experiment with interest. Of late I have found that on the longer (>6-7 hour) rides that I do I get more and more nauseous as the rides goes on. A nutrionist I see here in Durbs suggests that it is die to excessive carb build up in my gut. It got so bad in PBP 2011 that by the time I got to Brest anything that I ate or drank I vomited out straight away. As a result I ended up missing the Brest cut off.

 

Something of a newcomer to the Noakes diet. My reason was none of the usual ones - not weight loss or insulin resistance. Mine is to find a better (read more efficient) fuel for ultra-distance events. These are very long, mostly low intensity activities. So far so good - but it's still early days. It's a year long experiment for me, culminating in PBP this time next year. I've had a full panel of bloods already when I started, and will do another at 6 months and 12 months. So that I can understand how it affects my physiology.

 

At this stage I am not 100% fully fat adapted. I do boost my carbs on riding days where I know there will be higher intensity. By boost I mean going from around 50g/day to 100g/day - still within LCHF levels in fact even at the high end. I'm gradually going to reduce that now though to become better fat adapted.

[walkerr]

walkerr - I'll be following your experiment with interest. Of late I have found that on the longer (>6-7 hour) rides that I do I get more and more nauseous as the rides goes on. A nutrionist I see here in Durbs suggests that it is die to excessive carb build up in my gut. It got so bad in PBP 2011 that by the time I got to Brest anything that I ate or drank I vomited out straight away. As a result I ended up missing the Brest cut off.

 

I've had that problem on several long rides - the worst was an Audax 400 in UK back in May. Every part of my body was ticking over nicely towards the end except my stomach - legs, lungs, back, bum, all 100%. I joke that the only thing which would have caused me to DNF was running out of Rennies! I'd already been riding with several people on an LCHF plan for some time Having seen how well it worked on long rides, it was in my mind to try it - that 400 was the trigger.

 

This year I have 300,400,600 rides from Oct thru Dec. And then next year I'll have a similar set too - culminating hopefully in PBP in August. So should be plenty of on the road experience to judge it against.

Edited August 25, 2014 by walkerr

[walkerr]

SWAMBO just spotted the following study on Keto diet:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16652223

 

Interesting that it's quite a while back (Jun 2006).

 

OK, before all the naysayers shout up, it was a small study (66), but the results are interesting nevertheless.

[Jakkals.]

walkerr - I'll be following your experiment with interest. Of late I have found that on the longer (>6-7 hour) rides that I do I get more and more nauseous as the rides goes on. A nutrionist I see here in Durbs suggests that it is die to excessive carb build up in my gut. It got so bad in PBP 2011 that by the time I got to Brest anything that I ate or drank I vomited out straight away. As a result I ended up missing the Brest cut off.

 

During Baviaans, after CP5 I couldnt drink or eat anything more, my body couldnt take anything, any sip I took from my bottle came out quicker then it got in and I didnt even try to eat anything. so the last 50km was quite tough.

 

Legs were fine still, after CP6 I was flying down and even vomited a few times while pulling my teammates. Could this be from excessive carbs during the first part of the race? I didnt really eat much, however drank quite a bit due to the hot temps.

[walkerr]

During Baviaans, after CP5 I couldnt drink or eat anything more, my body couldnt take anything, any sip I took from my bottle came out quicker then it got in and I didnt even try to eat anything. so the last 50km was quite tough.

 

Legs were fine still, after CP6 I was flying down and even vomited a few times while pulling my teammates. Could this be from excessive carbs during the first part of the race? I didnt really eat much, however drank quite a bit due to the hot temps.

 

I've had something similar on long rides - in my case, I don't think these symptoms are necessarily carb related.

 

Carb related issues for me come on more gradually, with an increasingly intolerant and upset stomach. If I rest a bit, and eat real food, I can usually calm them down.

 

The symptoms you describe sound more to me like hydration issues - note that drinking a lot can cause these just as much as not drinking enough, especially if what is going in is plain water.

 

I've been doing a lot of reading lately as someone who sweats a lot and suffers hyrdation issues. First up, is that a typical electrolyte tab has around 200mg of sodium in it. If you sweat a lot, your requirement can be as high as 1,000mg per hour. OK, that is on very hot days - 40C plus - so lesser heat, lesser sodium needed. Bottom line is though, 1 electro tab per hour may be ok on cool/warm days like Baviaans, but not enough on hot days. The other part is the type of Sodium - USN Cramp Block for instance uses Sodium Bicarbonate (which in fact most do). The problem with this is that 200mg of Bicarb is only around 80mg of actual sodium. The other aspect is that Bicarb is an antacid - if you have an upset stomach this could be good, but if not you're lowering your stomach acid and reducing nutrient absorbtion rate. A few Salt tabs use Sodium Chloride - which is 100% Sodium (so 200mg is 200mg of Sodium) and does the opposite of Bicarb, it increases stomach acid. I'm still experimenting here as to which form of Sodium works better for me on longer rides - there are pros and cons to each depending on whether you have an upset stomach, or an issue absorbing fuel while riding.

 

I find when my hydration is out of whack, I physically cannot get food down. Gag reflex and cannot swallow a thing. Only cure then is a significant time off bike, and gradual/steady introduction of electrolytes to get me back in balance. In my case, it's pretty much a DNF if I've got myself into this state - Carb or improper fuelling issues I can usually recover from during the ride.

Edited August 27, 2014 by walkerr

[DikBuffalo]

So regards power and lchf.......all I can go on is my own experience (and I would believe it differs for everyone).

I believe I'm fully fat adapted, maintaining between 30 - 50g carbs per day. First 4 weeks on lchf, I had no power on the bike, my power numbers (5sec, 1min, 5min, 20min) were all low.

 

My numbers are all back to where they were before switching to lchf INCLUDING the 5sec and 1min, which was slightly unexpected (the fact that I've lost 8kg, changes my w/kg dramatically).

 

To test how long I could ride without consuming carbs, I did an 8 hour ride in a fasted state (so last lchf meal was the night before) at an IF of 0.75 (so it wasn't a slow pedal in the park) - finished the ride with no craving for food etc.

 

Raced Baviaans 2 weeks ago as well, I took energy bars and gels with, just in case (and to try out the train low/race high theory). Afterwards unpacking my pockets I realised I had one small energy bar the entire race - just didn't feel the need to have more (oh yes and an awesome cup of soup at the top of MAC!).

We finished in 9h30, so again we were at the sharp end of the race, not a light pedal. There is still a lot I'm learning through this lifestyle, but often I think we don't trust what we are capable of due to past conditioning and the lack of "evidence" (which is gradually changing). I know it's going to be different for everyone, but I hate it when there is a generalization of "without carbs you cannot race".

[HappyMartin]

Of course you need carbs to race. But you need them when you race. Not when you are sitting on your fat ass watching TV.

 

Simple really

[walkerr]

(oh yes and an awesome cup of soup at the top of MAC!).

 

Damn that MAC soup was good - had 2 cups and was set from there on!

 

Really useful info, thanks

[NixM]

Another concern about the LCHF diet is the role of animal proteins in colon cancer.

 

I was at a diagnostics forum last year where Prof Luc Montagnier (Nobel winner for discovering HIV) and Prof Harald Zur Hauzen (Nobel winner for link between HPV and cervical cancer) both gave a presentations. Zur Hausen presented data on the role of beef in increasing incidence of colon carcinoma.

 

Again long term studies are the key. The WHO has two long term studies up on their website both with show a role for diets low in animal fats:

 

http://www.who.int/entity/chp/media/en/north_karelia_successful_ncd_prevention.pdf

 

http://prevention.stanford.edu/

 

My take, as a pathologist - use comon sense, everything in moderation.

[SimpleDom]

Another concern about the LCHF diet is the role of animal proteins in colon cancer.

 

I was at a diagnostics forum last year where Prof Luc Montagnier (Nobel winner for discovering HIV) and Prof Harald Zur Hauzen (Nobel winner for link between HPV and cervical cancer) both gave a presentations. Zur Hausen presented data on the role of beef in increasing incidence of colon carcinoma.

 

Again long term studies are the key. The WHO has two long term studies up on their website both with show a role for diets low in animal fats:

 

http://www.who.int/entity/chp/media/en/north_karelia_successful_ncd_prevention.pdf

 

http://prevention.stanford.edu/

 

My take, as a pathologist - use comon sense, everything in moderation.

Go on. Take a risk. Pick sides.