How to stop the Cycling Carnage on SA's roads?

[Phatman]

this is what i did...put the question out to all my "friends" on face book.

 

" a question to people who drive motor vehicles on the road...What can i do to make it safer to ride my bicycle on the road? "

Why didn't I think of this? Great idea, thanks, I'll do it now too. Should result in some interesting debates.

[seven]

There may be a big difference between what you, me and Joe Soap perceive to be minor infringements. I'm driving down a deserted road, what's the harm in taking a quick glance at my phone to see who sent that message? Joe is approaching an intersection on said deserted road, sees only my car approaching and rolls through because there's sufficient space for him to turn safely if he doesn't stop. I drift into the oncoming lane while checking my phone, Joe swerves to avoid me, looks in the mirror and shakes his head at my stupidity, and doesn't see the cyclists riding 2 abreast cresting the hill. They're chatting, don't notice the danger in time, and we know the rest.

Why call "rubbish" on Tatt's post because you don't agree? Look at the videos he posted with his comment, I think his comment was valid. I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, and you've done more than many of us in your pursuit of cyclist safety, and for that I thank you. But rubbishing others' opinions if they differ with yours isn't conducive to finding solutions.

Well said!

[Patchelicious]

PS1059.jpg

 

I refuse to believe that is it justified for a motorist to knock a cyclist off a bike by passing too closely or endanger another human being while driving just because that human being broke a rule which affected no one but themselves. I have never said that it justifies their actions, it doesnt. NOT at all. But don't give them the opportunity.

 

I accept motorists get pissed off when a cyclist rolls through a red light safely or when they have to sit behind a bunch of cyclists riding 2 abreast. But does it justify them driving into a cyclist? Again as above.

 

My views on single file are not a secret, far too often I have seen a motorist attempt to overtake 15 riders riding in single file to realise it is too long a line and pulls in midway. right into the group. 2 abreast this group would be half the length. Which is safer? I know the law. It's the ONLY law motorists care about, seemingly. And use it endlessly to justify their lack of tolerance. We have spoken before about the two abreast thing, and is a muddy zone. I agree that in some cases its safer to do so, but then if you do it, acknowledge the cars behind you, be nice to them and watch them be more tolerant. Remember, most of them don't know what its like to be on a bicycle. They don't know the logic behind your argument, all that they see is somebi

body break the law. Know your audience. A smile and wave (which costs nothing and doesnt take effort) will often buy you much more tolerance from the driver. 

 

Even riding with self preservation uppermost in my thoughts and being law abiding and considerate I get buzzed, hooted at and intimidated by motorists. At least once every 30kms cycled. Yes, so does everybody else who cycles. Come ride in JHB sometime.... You will never win them all over, just as we will never get all cyclists to be considerate.

 

Yes Patch, every sector of society can improve their behaviour, cyclists too. But the minor infractions of rolling through an intersection safely and riding next to your mate on a deserted road DO NOT justify the carnage on our roads. YOU are an astute cyclist, YOU are aware of the dangers and ride accordingly. a bajillion other cyclists that are on our roads are NOT. You are not the only dude who rides on the road. These posts about riding like a knob are not for you, its for the masses who do. You won't ride 3 abreast up crappies having fat chat. You won't jump red lights in large groups during traffic. But others do. Your behavior on a bicycle is above average, so using your personal behavior as examples is not representative of the average cyclists behavior.

 

I cross 2 pedestrian crossings in Hout Bay daily. It's normally the 3rd driver that stops to let the pedestrian cross legally on the stripes. Despite me stopping and waiting in the other direction. What justifies this? A pedestrian jaywalking further up the road? 

 

A proper gap between motorists and bicycle riders is the ONLY way the slaying of bicycle riders by motorists will cease. Be it cycle paths or a passing law.

You seem hung up on the idea of road using our bad behavior to justify theirs. It doesnt, it never will and its wrong. The other solutions to our carnage problem (laws, court cases, signs, education etc) will help deal with those who refuse to be normal road users in time. 

 

We saying "well we won't change until they respect us road users" while they say, "look at these morons who don't respect the other road users, screw them" is not a recipe for any positive change, it will just keep exacerbating the issue. 

 

Nothing bad will come from being a more considerate road user, be it in a car or on a bicycle. Thats the point. 

 

While we work on the other solutions the least we can do is try be considerate of other road users in the mean time. Its not difficult. 

[carbon29er]

There may be a big difference between what you, me and Joe Soap perceive to be minor infringements. I'm driving down a deserted road, what's the harm in taking a quick glance at my phone to see who sent that message? Joe is approaching an intersection on said deserted road, sees only my car approaching and rolls through because there's sufficient space for him to turn safely if he doesn't stop. I drift into the oncoming lane while checking my phone, Joe swerves to avoid me, looks in the mirror and shakes his head at my stupidity, and doesn't see the cyclists riding 2 abreast cresting the hill. They're chatting, don't notice the danger in time, and we know the rest.

Why call "rubbish" on Tatt's post because you don't agree? Look at the videos he posted with his comment, I think his comment was valid. I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, and you've done more than many of us in your pursuit of cyclist safety, and for that I thank you. But rubbishing others' opinions if they differ with yours isn't conducive to finding solutions.

Rubbish was to the victim blaming in his post.

 

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists were injured rolling through a red light or stop sign in the past 5 years?

 

In your example what caused the accident? The guy driving while reading his smart-phone or the two cyclists riding 2 abreast? Yet it's the cyclists who are blamed.

 

The reality is it is not cyclists riding 2 abreast that causes accidents. A motorist is obliged, no matter what part of the country he is in, to only pass another vehicle when safe to do so. The problem is the majority of the vocal opponents of cycling on the road do not know the law and do not recognise a bicycle as a vehicle legally entitled to be on the road.  Often the motorist will try sneak past a single cyclist because they think there is space when there is not. 2 cyclists just force the motorist to wait until there is an opportunity to pass safely. It's this perceived delay that pisses motorists off. But I will guarantee you that if it is safe to pass one cyclist it is equally safe to pass two riding 2 abreast. If there is not space to pass two there is very likely not enough space to pass one.

 

It's not flashing front lights, bright clothes, reflectors, flashing rear lights, helmets or occasionally rolling when one should stop that causes motorists to hit cyclists.  It is the lack of attention to the space around a cyclist by the motorist that causes over 80% of accidents involving motor vehicles and bicycles.

[Patchelicious]

this is what i did...put the question out to all my "friends" on face book.

 

" a question to people who drive motor vehicles on the road...What can i do to make it safer to ride my bicycle on the road? " 

 

 

How about a follow-up question? What can you do to make it safer for me to ride my bicycle on the road?

 

 

Why didn't I think of this? Great idea, thanks, I'll do it now too. Should result in some interesting debates.

 

This is a cool idea. Would you guys maybe post the results here when you have enough answers?

 

Edit: Expect a lot of snark, but don't get sucked into it. Post the constructive feedback here.

[Patchelicious]

Snip*

 

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists were injured rolling through a red light or stop sign in the past 5 years?

 

 

 

Come on, you know thats not the point.

 

Edit: In many of your posts, you mention cars passing you closely, hooting at you, not giving you gaps, basically treating you like crap. Thats the issue we are trying to fix bettering our behavior. You won't win them all over, but by showing mutual respect some will change their behavior towards us.

 

For the ones that refuse too, stricter laws, better law enforcement, harsher sentencing etc will deal this those. These are solution we must ALSO work on.

[Fat Boab]

This is a cool idea. Would you guys maybe post the results here when you have enough answers?

 

Edit: Expect a lot of snark, but don't get sucked into it. Post the constructive feedback here.

 

Done! Let's see what my multitude of 'friends', all 26 of them, come back with.....

[MTBeer]

Rubbish was to the victim blaming in his post.

 

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists were injured rolling through a red light or stop sign in the past 5 years?

 

In your example what caused the accident? The guy driving while reading his smart-phone or the two cyclists riding 2 abreast? Yet it's the cyclists who are blamed.

 

The reality is it is not cyclists riding 2 abreast that causes accidents. A motorist is obliged, no matter what part of the country he is in, to only pass another vehicle when safe to do so. The problem is the majority of the vocal opponents of cycling on the road do not know the law and do not recognise a bicycle as a vehicle legally entitled to be on the road.  Often the motorist will try sneak past a single cyclist because they think there is space when there is not. 2 cyclists just force the motorist to wait until there is an opportunity to pass safely. It's this perceived delay that pisses motorists off. But I will guarantee you that if it is safe to pass one cyclist it is equally safe to pass two riding 2 abreast. If there is not space to pass two there is very likely not enough space to pass one.

 

It's not flashing front lights, bright clothes, reflectors, flashing rear lights, helmets or occasionally rolling when one should stop that causes motorists to hit cyclists.  It is the lack of attention to the space around a cyclist by the motorist that causes over 80% of accidents involving motor vehicles and bicycles.

jeez, you are so hung up on your self righteousness as a cyclist that you refuse to see that your actions as a cyclist MAY cause stupid/uncaring/hateful motorists to act and drive like idiots (please note I am NOT JUSTIFYING said motorist's actions, but that is what could happen). People are so highly strung these days that it doesn't take much to set them off.

[RocknRolla]

There is a rule of the road, that you may not obstruct the normal flow of traffic, this means, if you are a cyclist, you are to ride as far left as possible in the lane.

In addition to not being allowed to ride two abreast as a cyclist, unless overtaking another cyclist.

 

Take up a whole lane with a bunch of cyclists, travelling at 20 to 40 km/h (depending on the road) and motorists will become impatient and angry. (which I am not saying is right, but it is a fact)

 

I'm not waiting for other peeps to change, I have been driving like a law abiding citizen since Burry was killed by that taxi driver...

 

When I use the cradle, before overtaking a slower rider/group I check over my shoulder to make sure there are no vehicles approaching, this includes faster cyclists. If it is not safe, I slow the hell down, wait untill it is safe, and then pass. It really is not that difficult, and it really does not affect my training a all.

 

Just be considerate. Obey the rules. Easy

[Bateleur1]

jeez, you are so hung up on your self righteousness as a cyclist that you refuse to see that your actions as a cyclist MAY cause stupid/uncaring/hateful motorists to act and drive like idiots (please note I am NOT JUSTIFYING said motorist's actions, but that is what could happen). People are so highly strung these days that it doesn't take much to set them off.

 

That is the big issue now.  And add the fact that people have each their own little idea about where cyclist may and should ride, that cyclists should not even be on the road as they are not cars and their own warped idea of the road traffic act and you have what we have now.

[Phatman]

Rubbish was to the victim blaming in his post.

 

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists were injured rolling through a red light or stop sign in the past 5 years?

 

In your example what caused the accident? The guy driving while reading his smart-phone or the two cyclists riding 2 abreast? Yet it's the cyclists who are blamed.

 

The reality is it is not cyclists riding 2 abreast that causes accidents. A motorist is obliged, no matter what part of the country he is in, to only pass another vehicle when safe to do so. The problem is the majority of the vocal opponents of cycling on the road do not know the law and do not recognise a bicycle as a vehicle legally entitled to be on the road. Often the motorist will try sneak past a single cyclist because they think there is space when there is not. 2 cyclists just force the motorist to wait until there is an opportunity to pass safely. It's this perceived delay that pisses motorists off. But I will guarantee you that if it is safe to pass one cyclist it is equally safe to pass two riding 2 abreast. If there is not space to pass two there is very likely not enough space to pass one.

 

It's not flashing front lights, bright clothes, reflectors, flashing rear lights, helmets or occasionally rolling when one should stop that causes motorists to hit cyclists. It is the lack of attention to the space around a cyclist by the motorist that causes over 80% of accidents involving motor vehicles and bicycles.

In my example, we're all to blame. Myself, the other driver and the cyclist, because all were at fault.

 

We here strongly insist on motorists following ALL the rules of the road, ALL of the time. Should we not do the same, lest we become hypocrites?

[carbon29er]

You seem hung up on the idea of road using our bad behavior to justify theirs. It doesnt, it never will and its wrong. The other solutions to our carnage problem (laws, court cases, signs, education etc) will help deal with those who refuse to be normal road users in time. 

 

We saying "well we won't change until they respect us road users" while they say, "look at these morons who don't respect the other road users, screw them" is not a recipe for any positive change, it will just keep exacerbating the issue. 

 

Nothing bad will come from being a more considerate road user, be it in a car or on a bicycle. Thats the point. 

 

While we work on the other solutions the least we can do is try be considerate of other road users in the mean time. Its not difficult. 

Ironically, despite what some guy said to me on Chappies for tailgating a bus, I don't think there is a more considerate road user out there, on a bicycle or in a car, than me.

 

I do not advocate tolerance of transgression of road rules. I do advocate that the transgression by one party does not justify the wilful disregard of life by another.

 

The 2 cannot be linked. It's not we'll behave if you do. We all need to behave. But the difference is that when a motorist misbehaves he can cause serious injury to other. Not so for a cyclist.

[Hairy]

You behavior as a cyclist IS part of the topic.

 

The topic is "How to stop the cycling carnage".

 

There is not a singular answer. We have said multiple times that it is a multi tiered issue that needs to be addressed from multiple sides SiMULTANOUSLY.

 

Drunk driving is not the sole cause of road deaths. We need to stop only looking at through the key hole that supports our individual views.

 

Being a responsible cyclist and being a respectful road user is not the only solution to the problem by no means, but it's most definitely one of the many many many solutions.

 

The reason why it's important for us to acknowledge is that when it comes to actionable solutions, it's one that we can influence pretty easily, YOU can action it tomorrow. You don't need to wait for somebody else to do it for you.

 

We need to lobby to get harsher laws passed. This will take time, but it will have high impact.

We need to get more cycling lanes. This will take time.

We need to drive educational campaigns in schools and driving school. This will take even more time to be effective but the results will be long lasting.

We need to pressure the bodies (CSA and PPA) to use their influences and membership numbers to drive change.

We need use these same guys to pressure the Government agencies to enforce the laws more effectively.

We need to create mutual respect between road users.

 

Pull your fingers out your ears and listen to what the motorist complain about, it's about our behavior. It is their single biggest gripe. Why can't we change that? Why not??? Are we really going to sit here and be so arrogant as to say that we will not take responsibility for our behavior but we demand all these other things?

 

You can make a positive contribution tomorrow by not jumping red robots, thanking motorist for giving you space, not unnecessarily blocking traffic ( go read the BDF pledge) will the impact be huge, maybe not but it positively adds to the solution it doesn't add to the problem.

Bravo Patch.

 

100% 

[Hairy]

Rubbish was to the victim blaming in his post.

 

Can anyone tell me how many cyclists were injured rolling through a red light or stop sign in the past 5 years?

 

In your example what caused the accident? The guy driving while reading his smart-phone or the two cyclists riding 2 abreast? Yet it's the cyclists who are blamed.

 

The reality is it is not cyclists riding 2 abreast that causes accidents. A motorist is obliged, no matter what part of the country he is in, to only pass another vehicle when safe to do so. The problem is the majority of the vocal opponents of cycling on the road do not know the law and do not recognise a bicycle as a vehicle legally entitled to be on the road.  Often the motorist will try sneak past a single cyclist because they think there is space when there is not. 2 cyclists just force the motorist to wait until there is an opportunity to pass safely. It's this perceived delay that pisses motorists off. But I will guarantee you that if it is safe to pass one cyclist it is equally safe to pass two riding 2 abreast. If there is not space to pass two there is very likely not enough space to pass one.

 

It's not flashing front lights, bright clothes, reflectors, flashing rear lights, helmets or occasionally rolling when one should stop that causes motorists to hit cyclists.  It is the lack of attention to the space around a cyclist by the motorist that causes over 80% of accidents involving motor vehicles and bicycles.

well I was nearly taken out now recently by a roadie who was cycling on the road (west coast road) adjacent to the cycle lane. I was crossing on the pedestrian crossing/bicycle lane crossing, Mr Roadie riding on the road, and between the cars, jump a red light at speed turning left to the beach front and very nearly took me out at speed. could have been a nasty one.

[MTBeer]

well I was nearly taken out now recently by a roadie who was cycling on the road (west coast road) adjacent to the cycle lane. I was crossing on the pedestrian crossing/bicycle lane crossing, Mr Roadie riding on the road, and between the cars, jump a red light at speed turning left to the beach front and very nearly took me out at speed. could have been a nasty one.

was that at Dolphin Beach Hairy?

 

The other morning in my car at the robot there waiting to turn right onto R27 towards CT. Robot turns green for me and I pull away keeping a beady eye on the cars coming from the right from CT side, because you never know who is going to jump the red. Mr Idiot Cyclist No1 comes speeding across cycle lane crossing (against red light) from my left in front of me. As I slam on brakes and give him a couple of 'up-yours' and 'jou-ma-se-porches', his china Mr Idiot Cyclist No2 also comes speeding from the left (against red light) and almost into the side of my car.

 

So, ok Carbon 29, nobody was killed, but close enough hey?

[Hairy]

was that at Dolphin Beach Hairy?

 

The other morning in my car at the robot there waiting to turn right onto R27 towards CT. Robot turns green for me and I pull away keeping a beady eye on the cars coming from the right from CT side, because you never know who is going to jump the red. Mr Idiot Cyclist No1 comes speeding across cycle lane crossing (against red light) from my left in front of me. As I slam on brakes and give him a couple of 'up-yours' and 'jou-ma-se-porches', his china Mr Idiot Cyclist No2 also comes speeding from the left (against red light) and almost into the side of my car.

 

So, ok Carbon 29, nobody was killed, but close enough hey?

That exact crossing yes.

 

Besides the red light jumping stories. As a cyclist or pedestrian on the cycle lane, that intersection is the most dangerous part of the whole route from Table View to town. You have literally about 4/5 seconds to cross safely between traffic light changes, and you have to keep a beady eye out for any cars also jumping a red light turning left at the same time.