General Zero Tolerance on drug offenders?

[Skubarra]

 

Your 1st point around proof is harder. I'm with rattlesnake. Most do. I have no proof.  In the same way the Guptas will never be convicted of bribing the people they bribe and few of those accepting bribes will ever be convicted of being corrupt. But I am 100% sure that the Gupta family did not create the wealth they have accumulated so very quickly without bribing those most of us know they have bribed. In some areas of life proof is hard to come by but that does not make one's suspicions invalid.

 

I can accept that doping is more widespread than what officials are letting on, but "most"? Without evidence I'll just agree to disagree on this

[carbon29er]

Agree with everything else, but there are a number of professions (and even just jobs) where a conviction carries lifelong implications.

 

For example, an attorney caught with fingers in the trust till can be struck off the roll and may never practice again. Ditto an estate agent or a teller convicted of a crime where dishonesty is a factor may never be able to work in a bank again. 

 

They are of course free do something else and maybe that is the same for a doping cyclist. Work in a bike shop or for a distributor, ride for fun but not as a professional again.

 

I dunno, also don't care particularly. I race my mates and have no ego invested in my cycling performance.

As a professional I know and agree. Someone who is in a position where trust and integrity is critical to societies functioning HAS to be held to permanent account. Unless you are head of an elite crime fighting force, apparently.

 

But these guys are sportsmen and women. They are entertainers. I'm not banking their integrity, I'm banking the pleasure they give me watching their outrageous ability.

 

I, for one, care nothing for Sagan and his east European wideboy image and would not give a moment's thought to never seeing an interview with him or an ad for a superior kitchen fan.  But I do enjoy the entertainment value of his ability on a bike. Would I use a lawyer or accountant or doctor who emulates the east European wideboy image. Not in a million years. To me that is the difference. You cannot hold people who provide us with entertainment to the same standards as professional people that we NEED to be of the highest moral and ethical standard. Hence the difference in punishments.

[rattlesnake]

Your 2nd point is the point. It is a bigger advantage to some than others. And that why it is wrong and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

What probably didn't come across clearly enough in my argument, was that it is so unlikely that the issue of doping will ever be adequately addressed, quite simply because the structure of the sport and society is such that the doping doctors will always be one step ahead of the ones trying to catch the dopers. I don't approve of it, I don't think its right, but I have a level of acceptance because its one of those facts of life.

 

My hypothesis is that the level of equality is probably higher in a doped pro peloton then in a field of amateurs with varying natural abilities and tendencies towards drugs, even though athletes respond differently.

- Firstly because the entry criteria into the pro peloton is narrower i.e having the requisite engine, and

- Secondly because competitive forces will drive the pro's towards using similar methods of achieving gains (i.e. there will be less differences in the substances used).

 

Compare this to an amateur field where there is no minimum required entry point, and a multitude of drugs used unsupervised and without the input of top doctors.

[Jewbacca]

Sadly this is exactly why dopers get free **** - because people like you (and plenty others) worhsip them regardless of their morals.

 

Each to their own - if that is your view so be it.

 

I get it. Much as I say I am no fan of famous people I still get a little weird around them.

 

I will continue yelling DOPER at dopers - you continue worhipping them - we're both happy.

Worship them? Huh? At no given time did I say anything other than how much they suck.

 

My whole point is that the Epic is now owned by Iron Man and not Kevin Vermaak or the Epic crew who originally held such stances.

 

They are a money making international racket who will sell their souls to create hype and event exposure.

 

Wanda Sports, chinese owned has no care for anything but dollar bills.

 

My point had to do with the fact that people WILL go and watch them, I would and I think dopers suck. Owned by the original Epic crew, no way would we see this.

 

Current owners, IronMan and Wanda sports, will initiate changes and roll out marketing objectives that suit their purpose and line their pockets regardless of heritage and legacy. Be it a world qualifying tour of 'epics' with ours as the 'world champs' or whatever..

 

Maybe I was remiss by not putting a tongue in a cheek in a set of brackets. Sorry Eldron.

 

The changing of hands from a proudly South African event to one owned by a multi faceted global sporting conglomerate will change the face of Epic as well as the faces we see at the Epic.

 

THAT was my point. Sorry I didn't lay it out better. I got carried away imagining Lance bullying a crying Floyd while a patched up Vinakourov covered in gauze attacks and attacks in the mountains day after day with no support.... 

 

Everyone is so touchy and sensitive.

 

I actually blame the current state of the nation, the uncertainty over Pravin and the Rand for making everyone so on edge and anxious. Me being silly probably doesn't help and for that I apologise.

 

As you were. I will carry on with my month end books

[carbon29er]

I can accept that doping is more widespread than what officials are letting on, but "most"? Without evidence I'll just agree to disagree on this

You are a kinder person than me.  I agree that we have opposed views and neither will convince the other. I have reconciled my enjoyment of most sports to being able to watch the spectacle of humans at the very limit of possible performance without really caring how they got there. It has no bearing on my life whether they dope or not. What they do however does have a bearing as it provides me with entertainment. And I love that. I remember as a kid tuning into Coe v Ovett races on the radio to hear if another world record would fall. I'm neither a huge fan of 800m or 1500m nor am I British but it was a new era and I didn't want to miss hearing it live. Or Steve Redgrave rowing for his 5th consecutive Olympic Gold. Ed Moses. Daly Thompson. Sergey Bubka.

 

On the doping front, is a chemical substance not on the WADA list yet but used to improve performance "doping"?

 

Sharapova used a drug for more than a decade as it was not on any list but she "needed" it for a heart condition. Funny how she is still alive and able to play tennis without that drug since it has been banned. When did she become a doper? When she used it or when it got banned.

 

I'm also just not surprised when someone gets caught.

[Thor Buttox]

As a professional I know and agree. Someone who is in a position where trust and integrity is critical to societies functioning HAS to be held to permanent account. Unless you are head of an elite crime fighting force, apparently.

 

But these guys are sportsmen and women. They are entertainers. I'm not banking their integrity, I'm banking the pleasure they give me watching their outrageous ability.

 

I, for one, care nothing for Sagan and his east European wideboy image and would not give a moment's thought to never seeing an interview with him or an ad for a superior kitchen fan. But I do enjoy the entertainment value of his ability on a bike. Would I use a lawyer or accountant or doctor who emulates the east European wideboy image. Not in a million years. To me that is the difference. You cannot hold people who provide us with entertainment to the same standards as professional people that we NEED to be of the highest moral and ethical standard. Hence the difference in punishments.

What you are talking about is discernment, which is built after a lifetime of experience in a society that is (theoretically) based on rules intent on benefiting the whole in favour of the few who would seek to do harm. Like most problems, the breakdown of this is precisely when this goes wrong that **** starts to hit the fan. And precisely why even in the small world of pro cycling the same construct should remain. I would much prefer a world of consistent average morality where everyone aspires to the same values, to the hypocrisy of people who normally seek their own individual spire of ideological perfection. (Which is where to me the Epic fails.)

[NelAndre]

Worship them? Huh? At no given time did I say anything other than how much they suck.

 

My whole point is that the Epic is now owned by Iron Man and not Kevin Vermaak or the Epic crew who originally held such stances.

 

They are a money making international racket who will sell their souls to create hype and event exposure.

 

Wanda Sports, chinese owned has no care for anything but dollar bills.

 

My point had to do with the fact that people WILL go and watch them, I would and I think dopers suck. Owned by the original Epic crew, no way would we see this.

 

Current owners, IronMan and Wanda sports, will initiate changes and roll out marketing objectives that suit their purpose and line their pockets regardless of heritage and legacy. Be it a world qualifying tour of 'epics' with ours as the 'world champs' or whatever..

 

Maybe I was remiss by not putting a tongue in a cheek in a set of brackets. Sorry Eldron.

 

The changing of hands from a proudly South African event to one owned by a multi faceted global sporting conglomerate will change the face of Epic as well as the faces we see at the Epic.

 

THAT was my point. Sorry I didn't lay it out better. I got carried away imagining Lance bullying a crying Floyd while a patched up Vinakourov covered in gauze attacks and attacks in the mountains day after day with no support.... 

 

Everyone is so touchy and sensitive.

 

I actually blame the current state of the nation, the uncertainty over Pravin and the Rand for making everyone so on edge and anxious. Me being silly probably doesn't help and for that I apologise.

 

As you were. I will carry on with my month end books

I blame Kevin.....

['Dale]

Good points, Jewbacca ????????

[FCH]

Think he might be confusing a handful of hubbers as a general public concensus.

 

well is it really?

[Patchelicious]

If ANY big race INVITES ( not allows to ride, but specifically INVITES) any well publicized doper, the race organizers will attract negative comments, even more so is if they have made a public stance/rules about being against dopers.

 

OPs point is that this seems hypocritical.

[Patchelicious]

Think he might be confusing a handful of hubbers as a general public concensus.

 

 

You think?

[Gen]

Not so much. Apart from Sagan who is just super human there are not that many new generation winners. Not enough to claim that doping has been defeated and the peloton is now clean.

 

I find the silence from the peloton about Sir and his dodgy TUEs and AV's 365 day form says more than anything that they are not alone and not so much old generation. Then look at how skinny all the contenders are and wonder why your average super model is positively fat by comparison and they are not riding bikes up mountains faster then known dopers ever did.

 

It's hard to argue with rattlesnake's post, to be competitive it's accepted they have to dope. Claiming the new generation is different is living with the fairies. And that is the BS that irritates me about cycling. I love the spectacle of bike racing and I don't care who dopes or doesn't. Just don't pretend it is what it is not.

 

Like the Epic, don't have a ban and not have a ban at the same time on some arbitrary date.

I get what you are saying.. but if we maybe take Sags out of the equation there are a lot of youngsters that are really good.. Degenkolb already has 2 monuments , Gaviria, Groenewegen, Alaphilippe, Stuyven..all incredible good riders.

[Patchelicious]

I get what you are saying.. but if we maybe take Sags out of the equation there are a lot of youngsters that are really good.. Degenkolb already has 2 monuments , Gaviria, Groenewegen, Alaphilippe, Stuyven..all incredible good riders.

May I ask why Sagan deserves to be treated with less skepticism than the others?

[Eldron]

Worship them? Huh? At no given time did I say anything other than how much they suck.

 

My whole point is that the Epic is now owned by Iron Man and not Kevin Vermaak or the Epic crew who originally held such stances.

 

They are a money making international racket who will sell their souls to create hype and event exposure.

 

Wanda Sports, chinese owned has no care for anything but dollar bills.

 

My point had to do with the fact that people WILL go and watch them, I would and I think dopers suck. Owned by the original Epic crew, no way would we see this.

 

Current owners, IronMan and Wanda sports, will initiate changes and roll out marketing objectives that suit their purpose and line their pockets regardless of heritage and legacy. Be it a world qualifying tour of 'epics' with ours as the 'world champs' or whatever..

 

Maybe I was remiss by not putting a tongue in a cheek in a set of brackets. Sorry Eldron.

 

The changing of hands from a proudly South African event to one owned by a multi faceted global sporting conglomerate will change the face of Epic as well as the faces we see at the Epic.

 

THAT was my point. Sorry I didn't lay it out better. I got carried away imagining Lance bullying a crying Floyd while a patched up Vinakourov covered in gauze attacks and attacks in the mountains day after day with no support.... 

 

Everyone is so touchy and sensitive.

 

I actually blame the current state of the nation, the uncertainty over Pravin and the Rand for making everyone so on edge and anxious. Me being silly probably doesn't help and for that I apologise.

 

As you were. I will carry on with my month end books

My bad - the comic sans is not so clear on my mobile phone!

 

As you were - I hope the books balance. Assets equals owners equity minus liabilities or some *** like that. I hate accountancy :-)

[Gen]

May I ask why Sagan deserves to be treated with less skepticism than the others?

Eh? He was saying that there are no new generation riders that are winning.. I was pointing out that there are..

 

No one is saying any of rider are 100% clean.. like I have said before..we hope but we can't be certain..and that goes for Sagan too.

[Thor Buttox]

May I ask why Sagan deserves to be treated with less skepticism than the others?

Good point.