(Possible) Rider Down - Camps Bay

[Two-Stroke]

@Admin:  I dislike it when people make comments on forums like the one I'm about to, but I feel it needs clarity:

 

Which aspects in my last post jeopardized a legal case - in your opinion?  I didn't start this thread with intention to cause harm in any way.  In fact, I went out of my way to assist at the location where the bike was found, and simply posted here to find out whether it's owner was alright.

 

As a WSAR rescue volunteer who has been involved in many incidents involving body recoveries, shielding media & family, and securing scenes for legal reasons, I'd like to think I have some insight into the do's and don'ts at times like this.  I sense checked the original post and subsequent ones against the sensitivity at hand, and feel your moderating has been misguided.

 

Either way, rant over and I've done what I criticize others for doing.  One of those days where hours in arbitration sessions has left me irritated enough to be annoyed seeing my posts deleted.

[Matt]

@Admin:  I dislike it when people make comments on forums like the one I'm about to, but I feel it needs clarity:

 

Which aspects in my last post jeopardized a legal case - in your opinion?  I didn't start this thread with intention to cause harm in any way.  In fact, I went out of my way to assist at the location where the bike was found, and simply posted here to find out whether it's owner was alright.

 

As a WSAR rescue volunteer who has been involved in many incidents involving body recoveries, shielding media & family, and securing scenes for legal reasons, I'd like to think I have some insight into the do's and don'ts at times like this.  I sense checked the original post and subsequent ones against the sensitivity at hand, and feel your moderating has been misguided.

 

Either way, rant over and I've done what I criticize others for doing.  One of those days where hours in arbitration sessions has left me irritated enough to be annoyed seeing my posts deleted.

A fair question. I asked the same of another involved party who made contact with us shortly after the family member.

 

From the feedback I received it seems to primarily be speculation regarding the circumstances which led to the incident, e.g. the state / intent of the driver, which could be harmful to a case. From what I understand it's anything which could be seen to bias or influence subsequent witness statements. 

 

To be honest I would like to get proper legal opinion on this to fully understand where "the line" sits, but for the moment I'd rather err on the side of caution and over-moderation than in any way hinder this case.

[Patchelicious]

A fair question. I asked the same of another involved party who made contact with us shortly after the family member.

 

From the feedback I received it seems to primarily be speculation regarding the circumstances which led to the incident, e.g. the state / intent of the driver, which could be harmful to a case. From what I understand it's anything which could be seen to bias or influence subsequent witness statements.

 

To be honest I would like to get proper legal opinion on this to fully understand where "the line" sits, but for the moment I'd rather err on the side of caution and over-moderation than in any way hinder this case.

I'm not a fan of over moderation, but the above is fair enough. ????????

[Pah Bear]

Also struggled to see the original point for deletion, but in cases of the law, I concede to the learned minds in "other-world". Trust Admin to not abuse this loophole.

[Harryn]

I can understand the concern if it is the victim, or the driver or a witness, or any protagonist who is directly connected to the case, who is posting versions on social media.

 

That could be indeed affect a civil or a criminal trial because when that person ultimately gives evidence at trial he / she can be cross examined under oath on what he previously said on social media about the incident, so obviously it would be really silly for someone directly involved in the case to shoot his mouth off in public - this could indeed impugn his evidence if he then gives an inconsistent version in court. It would be great fodder for a cross examiner - whether defense lawyer or prosecutor.

 

That said, I personally disagree with the notion that @admin is obliged to delete such postings. Few people would suggest that a journalist should be impeded from interviewing a victim or a witness, or anyone connected to any case. That would offend the notion of freedom of the press, and it is just downright dangerous to suggest that every single court case should be cloistered in secrecy until the trial stage.

 

Anyway, I do not see how posts containing speculation, however wild, by unconnected keyboard warriors can possibly have a bearing on a case. I also disagree that these should be moderated.

 

Note. This is not a legal opinion- just the personal and un-researched viewpoint of yet another keyboard warrior.

 

Personally, I want to vent my spleen about the scumbag who drags a cyclist and then runs away leaving him for dead. That offends, shocks and scares me, and everyone else imbued with just a shred of humanity.

[Robbie Stewart]

Are we in danger of becoming a nanny-state?

[Duane_Bosch]

Are we in danger of becoming a nanny-state?

I'd take a nanny state over a banana republic every day of the week.

[Patchelicious]

I'd take a nanny state over a banana republic every day of the week.

Exactly.

 

Its the people who don't like the rules, that usually break them "sometimes" when it suits them, because it was ok in that circumstance

[Two-Stroke]

A fair question. I asked the same of another involved party who made contact with us shortly after the family member.

 

From the feedback I received it seems to primarily be speculation regarding the circumstances which led to the incident, e.g. the state / intent of the driver, which could be harmful to a case. From what I understand it's anything which could be seen to bias or influence subsequent witness statements. 

 

To be honest I would like to get proper legal opinion on this to fully understand where "the line" sits, but for the moment I'd rather err on the side of caution and over-moderation than in any way hinder this case.

 

Thanks @Admin.

While I still feel that some of the moderating here was misguided, I'm not an unreasonable person, am happy to follow the rules, and am also not a forum participant who's intention is to argue or spark conflict - quite the opposite actually in that I err on the side of caution or silence unless I'm able to contribute with good fact-based comments when people ask questions.

 

I'm not going to open or provide a legal debate here - it's not the place for it.  A constructive suggestion though is that you contact the admins at http://avcom.co.za and find out what their legal position is regarding discussion about incidents and accidents.  My AirLaw is rusty, but we have constructive threads on AvCom whenever there's an accident - often a few pages deep even before names of victims have been released.  It's encouraged as a platform for learning and sharing of knowledge/tips/experience etc.  The CAA's investigations have been known to quote AvCom in their accident reports, but any speculation by users on the forum doesn't carry weight in a case unless it alludes to crucial detail which the investigator may follow up on.

 

Anyway, I got my answer and am glad the cyclist involved is on the road to recovery.  We're all here because we love the sport and it hits close to home when we see a fellow cyclist go down while out sportsing!

 

@Admin Why not close this thread now that we know the cyclist is ok, and that no further incident-debate will be allowed?

[Shebeen]

I can understand the concern if it is the victim, or the driver or a witness, or any protagonist who is directly connected to the case, who is posting versions on social media.

 

That could be indeed affect a civil or a criminal trial because when that person ultimately gives evidence at trial he / she can be cross examined under oath on what he previously said on social media about the incident, so obviously it would be really silly for someone directly involved in the case to shoot his mouth off in public - this could indeed impugn his evidence if he then gives an inconsistent version in court. It would be great fodder for a cross examiner - whether defense lawyer or prosecutor.

 

That said, I personally disagree with the notion that @admin is obliged to delete such postings. Few people would suggest that a journalist should be impeded from interviewing a victim or a witness, or anyone connected to any case. That would offend the notion of freedom of the press, and it is just downright dangerous to suggest that every single court case should be cloistered in secrecy until the trial stage.

 

Anyway, I do not see how posts containing speculation, however wild, by unconnected keyboard warriors can possibly have a bearing on a case. I also disagree that these should be moderated.

 

Note. This is not a legal opinion- just the personal and un-researched viewpoint of yet another keyboard warrior.

 

Personally, I want to vent my spleen about the scumbag who drags a cyclist and then runs away leaving him for dead. That offends, shocks and scares me, and everyone else imbued with just a shred of humanity.

BUT wait, it's not joe bloggs here, you are AFAIK a lawyer so would (even un-researched) know more than the rest of us keyboard hacks.

 

Maybe we can get some advice from Emma, just send the invoice to brandon?

[Pure Savage]

I love how we delete posts because it will jeopradis the legal case, what BS. Show me a legal case in Cape Town which the driver has got a proper penalty for hitting a cyclist.

[madbradd]

I love how we delete posts because it will jeopradis the legal case, what BS. Show me a legal case in Cape Town which the driver has got a proper penalty for hitting a cyclist.

 

Fixed

[Patchelicious]

I love how we delete posts because it will jeopradis the legal case, what BS. Show me a legal case in Cape Town which the driver has got a proper penalty for hitting a cyclist.

LOL, true...

 

But the admin was specifically asked to remove it, so they did on good faith. I think that's fair enough?

[Matt]

I love how we delete posts because it will jeopradis the legal case, what BS. Show me a legal case in Cape Town which the driver has got a proper penalty for hitting a cyclist.

I'm not sure if any have received a proper penalty for hitting a cyclist. That's exactly why we've taken the cautious approach in this instance. If deleting a few posts and advising caution helps towards a successful case then I'm happy to take any flak for the perceived over zealous moderation in the short term

 

In this instance we've been advised that the case is a strong one. Perhaps this could be the first to see real justice. 

 

I do note that we (Bike Hub) need a better understanding of where to draw the line in terms of what might actually impact a case and what won't. We will pursue this and in that regard I value the advice from Two-Stroke above.  There is certainly value in sharing knowledge and discussion that might help avoid such incidents and generally improve safety. 

[Shebeen]

was the driver not identified and found? It seems from the victim's wife that she hasn't been?

 

https://www.facebook.com/lizolbrich/posts/10211976722506994

 

 

edit: driver very much been identified - cops just doing their thing

 

Hit and Run on Wed 12 July, 2017 – The concertina-like remains of my husband’s bike which was dragged for more than 2kms from the scene of a hit and run incident at 5h45pm on Victoria Road just before Bakoven. To everyone who stopped to help him, to the wonderful compassionate team of Dr’s and nurses in the ICU and surgical ward at Gardens Mediclinic and the entire cycling community – thank you for caring.

It’s been 2 weeks since our lives were impacted by the reckless act of one person. A woman who didn’t even have the courage or the compassion to stop and see if the cyclist she took out at such speed could be helped. We were one of the lucky families. We were blessed because I got to bring my husband home a week later and our two precious boys, Stefan and Max, got their father back - but not without having to deal with the consequential trauma, excruciating pain and the long needless recovery time that Robin will have ahead of him – and all for why? Why did she have to drive so recklessly, why did she flee the scene like a coward, why didn’t she stop to call the ambulance? Accidents happen, shock sets in and we all react differently – that I can accept, but when she coldheartedly drove away not once, but twice – to me that screams culpable. She was given a second chance to do the right thing. She could have turned around and taken the young man – who cared enough to flag her down more than 2kms away to pull the bike out from under her car, to find the cyclist she had hit. But no, even then she chose the heartless way out – she fled again. She knew what she had done but couldn’t even find the moral decency to send someone to help.

Writing this is my way of healing, of dealing with my emotions, it’s my outlet to all the questions that we have as a family and individually, and it’s directed at YOU – a woman without a semblance of goodness.

We live in a small community on the Atlantic Seaboard and somewhere between Cape Town and Hout Bay and even as far as Noordhoek, someone who knows me, Robin or one of our friends – knows you too. I take comfort in knowing that someone has seen the damage to your car that you have somehow tried to explain away and will send this on to you. That someone questions your story enough to make sure you see this post.

We haven’t forgotten and nor has the cycling community. Your actions have affected so many – not just our family unit, but our friends around the country – wives, husbands, partners of cyclists who fear for the lives of their loved ones just that little bit more as they are reminded yet again how vulnerable their lycra clad cyclist is when he or she is hit by a car, at speed.

We will spend the next days, weeks and coming months ensuring that Robin recovers from the accident that YOU caused – for why? Because you were in a rush, because you were on your phone, because you were on some mind altering substance? My husband and the poor girl who witnessed you driving into the back of him on a wide open road will have nightmares of the impact that YOU caused. I hope you never have to receive that phone call “…. I’m really sorry to have to call you like this but your husband has been hit by a car, he’s conscious but….”. That same husband and father who had little more than a cycle helmet and some lycra to protect him from your front bumper, your windscreen and the impact of his brutal collision with the tarmac.

There are so many more questions that we find ourselves asking almost daily– what are YOU doing now? How are YOU living with yourself? Did you stop for a second to think of the consequences of your action when you fled the scene of the accident you caused? Do you ever think of the 60 seconds you could have spared to call an ambulance, or the 75 minutes you should have spent with compassionate witnesses on the side of the road who stopped to ensure that the emergency services arrived? Have you thought for one moment of the trauma you have brought upon his family and friends, to the witness who watched you hit him from behind – who heard the explosion of the impact above the noise of her music? Have you even bothered to try to find out whether the cyclist is dead or alive? Do any of your own family know how self-serving you are, how inhumane their mother, sister, daughter, wife, girlfriend is? How have you explained the damage to your left front bumper, the human sized dent in your bonnet, the huge crack in your windscreen and the damage to the undercarriage of your car from dragging an exploded bike for 2kms or more in a quiet residential suburb. Your cowardly act didn’t go unnoticed or unheard.

Yes, we were the lucky ones – my husband had guardian angels watching over him, and he’s home with us now, but his angels can’t protect him from the emotional trauma and the pain that you inflicted on him. No one can take away the memory of those agonising hours spent in ER waiting to find out just how badly you had broken his body. The trauma of having to tell his sons and his friends what had happened and the emotional scarring left on our eldest as he held his father in his arms when he passed out from the pain. You didn’t just break a cyclist, you broke the heart of a young teenager who has had to watch his father suffer, you made him old-young as he suddenly absorbed the fragility of life. Your reckless driving and cowardly action left a family in tears and a community in anger and for that you need to be held accountable.