Homeschoolers Not Welcome at Spur MTB League

[Andrew Steer]

I think the series should be a kids series for a particular age group - not "school" kids. Maybe the whole school thing should be dropped from the name and the series. 

So just make it like every other one of the 600 events on the calendar...???

 

You have missed the point completely. The whole point of the series is to get schools involved in cycling. To get cycling into schools thinking and budgets. To get kids who cycle recognised at school level. And it's working... One age cat at a Gauteng Schools XCO is bigger than our Nationals. 

 

I tried to give insights earlier, since I actually work with one of the driving forces of this series on a daily basis and have spoken at length with him, but was told I was just guessing, so I'll leave this one up to the experts. 

 

No issue with home schoolers, but this series targets schools and is built around qualifying the top school teams for the finals.

[Paddaman]

Then why have a different set of rules in different regions??? - that should never have happened and yes it is *** but where this differs from the other school sports is that there are plenty of clubs and club leagues where the kids play soccer, rugby, cricket, tennis etc etc  and have a chance to compete in their age group.

 

What should have happened from the start is to let all kids compete but where on the entry form you enter your school name etc there should be a "other" option and if there is a benefit to the school having kids compete then in these cases the funds or whatever just goes to cycling development and in entering you agree and understand.

 

Now that would be a more understandable model and one I think would have had much less objection or opposition.

 

It's ok to get the schools involved but let all the kids in.

If you had even read the OP and the link on the OP you would have known that each province has its own conditions for including or not including primary schools and HS.

 

In Gauteng, the High Schools were instrumental in establishing and developing the league, It was a case of BY THE HIGH SCHOOLS FOR THE HIGH SCHOOLS.  This and the large number of participants made Gauteng unique regarding not having a primary school catergory and not having HS pupils.  HS was exclude from the start because they were not participants at the start.  They metaphorically were not at the station when the train left.

 

In the other provinces HS and primary schools were included partially because of less numbers and partially because already established events were incorporated into the league, thereby in the spirit of fairness, those who were competing at the start were not disadvantaged by the incorporation of these events.

 

Thus, the requirement for HS pupils to be included in the Spur High School League is a NEW requirement for the league, and will have to be processed through the correct channels, and agreed upon by the members of the league (ie High Schools and organisers).  For thisto happen the request will have to be measured against the purpose of the league, and also against the organisational capacity of the organisers and the objectives of the sponsors.

 

At the moment HS does not embrace the objective of the league, secondly the organisers are battling with current numbers and lastly, te sponsor wants to access a demographically diverse market group.  So, even if HS get their hearing, it is rather obvious that their first move gambit may have been a blunder.

 

Lastly, please stop using the "for the kids" argument, it is emotive, irrational and shows a total lake of maturity.  Rather say "for my kid at all costs, I don't care about other kids losing their access, just so that my kid can participate".

[ChrisF]

So just make it like every other one of the 600 events on the calendar...???

 

You have missed the point completely. The whole point of the series is to get schools involved in cycling. To get cycling into schools thinking and budgets. To get kids who cycle recognised at school level. And it's working... One age cat at a Gauteng Schools XCO is bigger than our Nationals. 

 

I tried to give insights earlier, since I actually work with one of the driving forces of this series on a daily basis and have spoken at length with him, but was told I was just guessing, so I'll leave this one up to the experts. 

 

No issue with home schoolers, but this series targets schools and is built around qualifying the top school teams for the finals.

 

Thank you Andrew.

 

THIS is clearly topic in its own right !!

 

Looking at Oudtshoorn it is good to see how the schools actively promote cycling as a school sport.

 

In Cape Town ... NOT so much !!!  Most schools still thinks athletics is the only sport that does not involve a ball of some sort .....

 

 

I trust our school will be added to the SPUR list on Tuesday.  After which we will contact the parents and try to get more to participate in this event ... all small steps towards getting cycling as another school sport.

 

 

 

Yesterday we had 6 primary school kids at Meerendal.  One kid of about 6 or 7 years old was a real natural, and left the others way behind, and even managing to CLIMB some steep hills.  Two older kids could not even remotely match his skills !

 

 

Absolutely brilliant what SPUR has done !!

 

 

THANKS.

[Andrew Steer]

Thank you Andrew.

 

THIS is clearly topic in its own right !!

 

Looking at Oudtshoorn it is good to see how the schools actively promote cycling as a school sport.

 

In Cape Town ... NOT so much !!!  Most schools still thinks athletics is the only sport that does not involve a ball of some sort .....

 

 

I trust our school will be added to the SPUR list on Tuesday.  After which we will contact the parents and try to get more to participate in this event ... all small steps towards getting cycling as another school sport.

 

 

 

Yesterday we had 6 primary school kids at Meerendal.  One kid of about 6 or 7 years old was a real natural, and left the others way behind, and even managing to CLIMB some steep hills.  Two older kids could not even remotely match his skills !

 

 

Absolutely brilliant what SPUR has done !!

 

 

THANKS.

 

It's a real challenge to get Mtb into traditional schools... even my own school, where one of the teachers is a Munga/Cape Epic rider - no real interest. They focus on what they have, what they have been successful with, what the majority of parents and learners want... there is also the challenge of finding budget, teachers to manage/drive it etc - and then of course pupils not already tied up in the myriad of other sport offerings. 

 

It will require a whole mindset change, but the sport really is great for kids, it combines co-ordination/skill required with the traditional discipline of doing the training... we will get there, especially with the help of companies like Spur.

[Slowbee]

 

You have repeated the same comment throughout this thread and your bashing of the home schooling group is getting a bit much.

 

i have objected to homeschoolers coming out in force and calling for boycotts against spur, and notably those who have nothing to do with cycling, (the vast majority of those that attacked the Spur fb page). 

 

How is this bashing HS? Have you even read my comments?  Your comment above feels more like a rebuke arising from a complaint, as your hub comments are normally more informed.  Let OP moan directly to me if he thinks he has been unfairly characterized.

 

 

The Spur series as run in Gauteng has a rule that excludes home schooled children from participation. That rule is not right. Yes it is a rule, but it is not right. If we cannot agree on that then there is no more need for discussion.

 

So you justify the destruction, or at least calls for the destruction of a very successful system benefiting tens of thousands of kids because the system is not 100% perfect, and has not been able to cater for every single eventuality?

 

Sure, the rule is unfair - i made that clear in my initial comments.  Attacking the sponsor and threatening them with economic sanction is also not right.  Hierarchies exist in life, and reasonable people would agree that this is the greater wrong.

 

To use your words, If we cannot agree on that then there is no more need for discussion.

 

 

To take Thor's example from previous posts, there is a difference between selection and rules being in place preventing inclusion.

 

In terms of a bigger picture, are you saying that just because the masses stand to loose, we must allow rules that are not right? 

 

So we have moved the debate forward.

 

We both agree the rule is wrong. Where both arguments get a bit vague is what to do about that. If I am correct, your view is the "great good" must prevail. We must look past what we both agree is wrong because so many will loose.

 

My view is something must be done about it. The rule is unfair, and is significant enough in its "unfairness" that something needs to be done. What I dont know is exactly how much discussion the OP has had with the organisers to try resolve this. My impression that there was a bit and it did not get anywhere. So escalate it to taking it further.

 

Sort of like its okay for executives to cheat their financials because if they are caught so many people will loose their jobs. Which is the greater good?

 

An even more apt example, given this is a cycling forum, is using allowing ebikes or banning them at an event. 

 

The debate is actually when are rules just wrong enough to do nothing about them and when are rules seriously wrong enough that you will stop at nothing to change them.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Nah, Slowbee - that's another false equivalency. There's nothing illegal / wrong in the rule. It's logical, and there to prevent a (further) over-subscription. 

 

It's like preventing home-schoolers from competing in an inter-school competition... 

 

Essentially it's a school "team sport" - would you lobby for your child to be a part of Rondebosch's rugby team, if they were IN Rondebosch but being home schooled? Same thing. 

[bertusras]

So just make it like every other one of the 600 events on the calendar...???

 

You have missed the point completely. The whole point of the series is to get schools involved in cycling. To get cycling into schools thinking and budgets. To get kids who cycle recognised at school level. And it's working... One age cat at a Gauteng Schools XCO is bigger than our Nationals. 

 

I tried to give insights earlier, since I actually work with one of the driving forces of this series on a daily basis and have spoken at length with him, but was told I was just guessing, so I'll leave this one up to the experts. 

 

No issue with home schoolers, but this series targets schools and is built around qualifying the top school teams for the finals.

 

[Slowbee]

Nah, Slowbee - that's another false equivalency. There's nothing illegal / wrong in the rule. It's logical, and there to prevent a (further) over-subscription. 

 

It's like preventing home-schoolers from competing in an inter-school competition... 

 

Essentially it's a school "team sport" - would you lobby for your child to be a part of Rondebosch's rugby team, if they were IN Rondebosch but being home schooled? Same thing. 

Ok, so we move forward another step with the debate and move into the state of the enormous success of the league and the complications of such rapid growth.

 

It is complicated by the fact the HS are allowed in other provinces but not in Gauteng.

 

This is a statement from the Spur league website

 

"In short, participation in the League is open to all school children, irrespective of whether the school has an MTB programme or not. However, participation in the Inter-schools Final is based on overall performance of school teams."

 

So let HS'elrs enter the "league" events, by simple process of elimination they wont get into quarter final, semi final or another any final.

 

As an aside, because I dont know, would the Spur league allow only one child from one school to enter ? Hypothetically, say Saint Blikies Secondary School in Eloff street has only one rider entered, will the league say no you cannot enter ?

 

EDIT: paddamn is not allowed to comment, his logic is well .... sometimes to logical.

[Paddaman]

Ok, so we move forward another step with the debate and move into the state of the enormous success of the league and the complications of such rapid growth.

 

This is a statement from the Spur league website

 

"In short, participation in the League is open to all school children, irrespective of whether the school has an MTB programme or not. However, participation in the Inter-schools Final is based on overall performance of school teams."

 

So let HS'elrs enter the "league" events, by simple process of elimination they wont get into quarter final, semi final or another any final.

 

As an aside, because I dont know, would the Spur league allow only one child from one school to enter ? Hypothetically, say Saint Blikies Secondary School in Eloff street has only one rider entered, will the league say no you cannot enter ?

 

A rather disingenuous argument.

 

Firstly, the debate is not about whether HS are allowed in the Spur Inter School league or not, but rather if they should be allowed into the GAUTENG Spur Inter School league.  The organisers have pointed out that the Gauteng league was initially organised by Gauteng High Schools for Gauteng High Schools and as such as the "owners"/founders of the league designed it for their purpose, and as such in GAUTENG primary schools and HS were not included from inception.  (for other provinces where the league developed on a different trajectory HS and primary schools were included from inception)

 

Secondly, if the purpose of the competition is to qualify for a semi finals and finals, what would the incentive be for participation (and the financial outlay) if you were explicitly excluded from the "final" events from the start?  (or are we missing the moving goal post here?  When will HS parents start pushing for inclusion in these events as well?)

 

Thirdly, how will HS participation help acheive the leagues purpose?  ie Acceptance of TEAM MTB RACING as a SCHOOL SPORT in the GAUTENG DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?  Answer that question and your child has his/her place at the start line.

 

So before we continue this farce of "mass participation" "free for all, so long as they can afford a fancy bike and personal mom's taxi ext" arguments, we should answer this question (point  3), and with it accept that having TEAM MTB accepted as a school sport has a number of advantages for everyone in MTB inter alia:

1.  Development infrastructure for new mtbkers at schools

2.  Establishment and training of sport administrators

3.  Accessible and sustainable support systems that his more demographically representative than private participation (most Model C schools are racially representative)

4.  Access to a large market for sponsors and cycling in general.

You have to build a house before you can live in it....

[Andrew Steer]

"In short, participation in the League is open to all school children, irrespective of whether the school has an MTB programme or not. However, participation in the Inter-schools Final is based on overall performance of school teams."

 

So let HS'elrs enter the "league" events, by simple process of elimination they wont get into quarter final, semi final or another any final.

 

As an aside, because I dont know, would the Spur league allow only one child from one school to enter ? Hypothetically, say Saint Blikies Secondary School in Eloff street has only one rider entered, will the league say no you cannot enter ?

 

EDIT: paddamn is not allowed to comment, his logic is well .... sometimes to logical.

Schools with just one rider are allowed to partake - after all, all schools may well have just had one rider initially. This is how you get into schools, one kid loves it, more join, a teacher then gets on board and boom... you've got a bus of 50 kids pitching up a couple years down the line. That's the key difference between schools and home schooling - the potential for growth and the continuity that comes when a school embraces the idea...

 

The aim of the series again is to get Mtb adopted as a standard school sport. Like you have an athletics track meet, you could well have a showdown between all the top schools in Joburg or Pretoria outside of the Spur Schools series. That's where they want to go, all schools having a few cycling teams and the sport flourishing as a result thereof. 

[s14phoenix]

If you had even read the OP and the link on the OP you would have known that each province has its own conditions for including or not including primary schools and HS.

 

.....

 

Lastly, please stop using the "for the kids" argument, it is emotive, irrational and shows a total lake of maturity.  Rather say "for my kid at all costs, I don't care about other kids losing their access, just so that my kid can participate".

 

So if you had read my post you would see that I said perhaps the rule discretion is the cause of the issue.

 

And lastly the "for the kids" argument is exactly the argument here and the purpose of the OP posting - not my post ---> His. His point for inclusion of HS in Gauteng is valid as it was allowed in other provinces.

And the numbers overflow is fantastic - so lets segment the region like what is done in athletics?

 

1. I agree that one should not crucify the sponsor. 

2. I agree that it should not be at the cost of the series either it is a great initiative which needs support

 

 

So just make it like every other one of the 600 events on the calendar...??? Ummmm no - there is not a series specific for kids to compete in that is open to everyone.

 

You have missed the point completely. The whole point of the series is to get schools involved in cycling. To get cycling into schools thinking and budgets. To get kids who cycle recognised at school level. And it's working... One age cat at a Gauteng Schools XCO is bigger than our Nationals. Great so then it should have been kept to schools only and not opened up to HS anywhere at all. No wonder Gauteng HS parents feel left out...

 

I tried to give insights earlier, since I actually work with one of the driving forces of this series on a daily basis and have spoken at length with him, but was told I was just guessing, so I'll leave this one up to the experts. 

 

No issue with home schoolers, but this series targets schools and is built around qualifying the top school teams for the finals.Great so then it should have been kept to schools only and not opened up to HS anywhere at all.

 

Quoted from the website:

 

"In Gauteng, the events were founded by schools in the early 2000’s and thus have always been school-focused, hence the fact that a no-homeschooling policy has always applied here.

Gauteng has a further challenge in that the events are oversubscribed and we are struggling to accommodate the current schools as it is."

 

Some of the problems then currently already include:

 

1. The series currently cannot accommodate everyone who qualify so even kids in schools are being excluded???

 

2. Numbers are not limited to the amount of riders per school that can enter - so everyone makes the team???

 

There already seems to be answers to a lot of the issues in the problems the series has in Gauteng.

 

I don't know about things these days, but when I was in school if you where not better than the other boys or girls you did not make the team. If a teams has 3 spots - the best 3 made the team. you could still compete in house to make the team - this is where the school's development work needs to come to the party. It may not be what the series is about now but in future it will need to evolve as this could be the very reason the series is "attacked"

 

"Schools are encouraged to enter as many riders as possible in order to rack up points which are awarded to riders’ finishing positions in each race.  The primary and high schools finishing top of the points log at the end of each season are awarded the Region’s School Champion floating trophy."

[Patchelicious]

Do you guys not get tired of arguing for the sake of it instead of trying to find solutions?

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Do you guys not get tired of arguing for the sake of it instead of trying to find solutions?

Seems to me that the only solution that will ever be accepted is the one where home schoolers are allowed to take part. Regardless of the consequences and / or alternative.

 

A simple "no, read the rules" and as much explanation / reasoning / logic backing those rules up, isn't acceptable.

[eddy]

2c...This is whole issue is blown way out but like always this forum likes a good schoolyard fight. 

 

 

I think the series should be a kids series for a particular age group - not "school" kids. Maybe the whole school thing should be dropped from the name and the series. True that there are schools hosting the events etc. which is great but this should not dictate the exclusion of any kids. Hats off to Spur putting their name on something so good for this sport as there is not much support out there lets be honest.

 

Everyone should be allowed to compete no exclusions - we want to cultivate the best of the best and most talented/hardest working - whether schooled, home schooled , school less , homeless... what does that matter? 

 

 

The End.

 

 

If that is your dream, then start a scheme like that, find a sponsor and run it. There are already series like you propose but another would be welcomed. Go for it, you have nothing to lose but your capital.

 

 

Meurant Botha was very rational and clear that what you are proposing is NOT the focus of  THIS series. It has other, far bigger aims that go beyond individual riders. It is SPECIFICALLY aimed at schools.

[Andrew Steer]

So if you had read my post you would see that I said perhaps the rule discretion is the cause of the issue.

 

And lastly the "for the kids" argument is exactly the argument here and the purpose of the OP posting - not my post ---> His. His point for inclusion of HS in Gauteng is valid as it was allowed in other provinces.

And the numbers overflow is fantastic - so lets segment the region like what is done in athletics?

 

1. I agree that one should not crucify the sponsor. 

2. I agree that it should not be at the cost of the series either it is a great initiative which needs support

 

 

 

Some of the problems currently already include:

 

1. The series currently cannot accommodate everyone who qualify so even kids in schools are being excluded???

 

2. Numbers are not limited to the amount of riders per school that can enter - so everyone makes the team???

 

There already seems to be answers to a lot of the issues in the problems the series has in Gauteng.

 

I don't know about things these days, but when I was in school if you where not better than the other boys or girls you did not make the team. If a teams has 3 spots - the best 3 made the team. you could still compete in house to make the team - this is where the school's development work needs to come to the party.

There are junior categories at lots of races around the country...

There are other XCO series as well with cats for them.

 

The leagues were all run separately by different organising teams until this year... hence the different paths to here. This has been pointed out several times before.

 

The Gauteng league unlike the other leagues never needed to compromise their format for the sake of numbers - the school team racing dynamic was always the priority. Primary schools were allowed in some other provinces, is that also going to be pushed into Gauteng?

 

 

[Slowbee]

A rather disingenuous argument.

 

Firstly, the debate is not about whether HS are allowed in the Spur Inter School league or not, but rather if they should be allowed into the GAUTENG Spur Inter School league.  The organisers have pointed out that the Gauteng league was initially organised by Gauteng High Schools for Gauteng High Schools and as such as the "owners"/founders of the league designed it for their purpose, and as such in GAUTENG primary schools and HS were not included from inception.  (for other provinces where the league developed on a different trajectory HS and primary schools were included from inception)

 

Secondly, if the purpose of the competition is to qualify for a semi finals and finals, what would the incentive be for participation (and the financial outlay) if you were explicitly excluded from the "final" events from the start?  (or are we missing the moving goal post here?  When will HS parents start pushing for inclusion in these events as well?)

 

Thirdly, how will HS participation help acheive the leagues purpose?  ie Acceptance of TEAM MTB RACING as a SCHOOL SPORT in the GAUTENG DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?  Answer that question and your child has his/her place at the start line.

 

So before we continue this farce of "mass participation" "free for all, so long as they can afford a fancy bike and personal mom's taxi ext" arguments, we should answer this question (point  3), and with it accept that having TEAM MTB accepted as a school sport has a number of advantages for everyone in MTB inter alia:

1.  Development infrastructure for new mtbkers at schools

2.  Establishment and training of sport administrators

3.  Accessible and sustainable support systems that his more demographically representative than private participation (most Model C schools are racially representative)

4.  Access to a large market for sponsors and cycling in general.

You have to build a house before you can live in it....

Remind me never to invite you to poker nite, not only will we loose the argument, but also our money AND our whiskey in making you drink.

 

Your points raise the matter of teams sports and if it is worth entering something even though you know you will not win. Does this stop you from entering a sport event even though you know you are not going to win, or even stand a chance of getting to the final. The purpose is rather about participation.

 

If any school can enter any number of riders, including just 1 rider from one school, that is not different from 1 HS rider. Is 1 rider from 1 school then not a team?

 

Just as way of discussing this rationally, the league is very successful. And that is the problem. From the outside it almost looks to successful. But perhaps this HS thing is time for the league to develop. Make it a league. Like football, you can have A teams and B teams, all on different levels all competing differently.

 

BUT, and this is where the HS group is doing a disservice, is they should get themselves organised into a HS group. That much is simple. They should have a HS "club" and all members of that club have been registered with the department as home schoolers.

 

I dont buy the reason that HS cannot enter because of wanting to make the league a team sport. It excludes schools with only 1 rider. I dont buy the over subscribed because it means entries into league will no longer be considered.

 

What I do buy is what Meurant did not say in his post. I buy that they now know they have a problem. I do buy that they are wanting to find a way to sort it out. That I buy.

 

In terms of the origins of this thread (and hence my opening discussion of when are rules wrong enough to change), is how long did they the leagueknow about the problem?. How long were the gauteng HS group trying to engage the gauteng league and was putting pressure on the title sponsor the first straw or last straw. This is all conjecture and we will all disagree on if it was the right move or wrong move. If the pressure on Spur causes the league to be spurred to better, then everyone will be winners.