Accident in the cradle.

[MTB-More]

I am curious how the truck driver is emotionally taking all of this. If something has to happen to Victor he would be locked up for involuntary manslaughter as there would be arguments for him to have stayed in his lane and not be courteous to give the cycle lane on his side more space.

 

I really hope Victor makes a full recovery cause he is also the victim in this being at the back of the pack.

 

Lack of discipline from the group could potentially cost 2 people everything. 1 with his life and 1 with his livelihood and those causing this walks away with a bent rim and a insurance claim just to do it again next month. The attitude that we as cyclists are never wrong and have a right to do what we want needs to end

 

If this is not a wake up call for groups to be more disciplined then I don't know what would be. The obvious easy scapegoat here is that the Truck driver is 100% at fault that I don't agree with.

 

We should potentially limit group sizes or split them for safety. Bunches of 50 should potentially be split into 3 groups of 15 odd with a 5-10m gap in between them. Keeping to the "single file" rule to avoid big bunch ups when there is a emergency situation and nowhere to bail but into traffic.

 

Also the responsibility is with everyone to speak up when you see a group or multiple riders doing something stupid or negligent. Ultimately its in the best interest of everyone.

[Bateleur1]

Go read one of my earlier posts, I stated there was plenty of room for everyone, I was close (2-3m), but not right on the back of Victor's wheel, so I had no need to keep an eye on the bike in front, I was looking up at the road ahead as I was about to latch onto the back of the group and become part of the group, so needed to be aware of circumstances.  I saw the truck overtaking the group on the opposite side and thought nothing of it being an issue or a threat as I was fast approaching the group, intending to join.

 

My view was unobstructed and clear before, during and after the accident.  I witnessed in slow motion (as time seems to slow down during these things), Victor loosing control and swerving into the path of the truck.  If needs be I can clearly indicate at the exact point on the truck he impacted.  I have previously said that it is a sight and sound I will not forget quickly.

 

Of course you are welcome to your opinion that my evidence on what I saw as was involved in is unreliable, I will dispute that as you were not there and have no idea of circumstance or events.

 

And you must be joking that eye witness evidence is not necessary??... did you forget comic sans at this point!!.... The more you talk the less credible you become quite frankly!!

 

Would you say that the cyclists were at fault (ie lack of discipline)?

[GaryvdM]

Can anyone who was there say if there was there was wheel overlapping going on the group?

[shaper]

Would you say that the cyclists were at fault (ie lack of discipline)?

I cannot speculate, only reiterate what I saw and experienced, a group crash which happens in bunch riding. Guys rode into the back of one another, some went down, others bailed left into the grass and unfortunately Victor loosing control and swerving into oncoming traffic.  

[eddy]

Of course you are welcome to your opinion that my evidence on what I saw as was involved in is unreliable, I will dispute that as you were not there and have no idea of circumstance or events.

 

I did not say that your evidence is unreliable, just that eye-witness reports are notoriously unreliable. This is not an opinion nor is it an attack on you or what you saw. A lot has been written about the unreliability of eyewitness reports and studies have shown it to be like that.

 

I am also not dismissing what you saw. I am suggesting that your interpretation of what you saw is, based on the fact that an accident did occur, wrong.

 

If it was safe to overtake, no accident could have taken place.

 

I recognise that he could not have foreseen a cyclist would fall infront of him, but he could have forseen that a cyclist could, and so should not have started overtaking.

 

And you must be joking that eye witness evidence is not necessary??... did you forget comic sans at this point!!.... The more you talk the less credible you become quite frankly!!

 

No, read again. I did not say that, but perhaps you are too emotionally invested in this to read what I said accurately and understand what it actually was what I said.

 

Ironically, this lack of detachment (which is human nature) is one of the factors that makes eye witness evidence unreliable.

[Bateleur1]

I cannot speculate, only reiterate what I saw and experienced, a group crash which happens in bunch riding. Guys rode into the back of one another, some went down, others bailed left into the grass and unfortunately Victor loosing control and swerving into oncoming traffic.  

 

Thanks and this is where my issue comes with MTB-More comes in.  You as a witness can't say that there was a lack of discipline among the cyclists yet he continues riding that dead horse.

 

I have nothing more to say on this thread other than hoping for a speedy recovery to the injured.  Strongs to the driver of the truck (although on technicality I still think it was preventable) and strongs to the those who witnessed it as I very well know how traumatic these things are.

[MTB-More]

Thanks and this is where my issue comes with MTB-More comes in.  You as a witness can't say that there was a lack of discipline among the cyclists yet he continues riding that dead horse.

 

I have nothing more to say on this thread other than hoping for a speedy recovery to the injured.  Strongs to the driver of the truck (although on technicality I still think it was preventable) and strongs to the those who witnessed it as I very well know how traumatic these things are.

 

 

Give it a rest dude. What I define as ill-discipline and you define as ill-discipline is not universally the same.

 

To me it was ill-discipline. To you just another day out. Do with it what you want.

 

The Fact that the leader called for single file (It was stated in previous posts) already in my book is ill-discipline of the group as they should know for everyone safety they should stay single file. The fact that the motion of getting into single file (also stated in previous posts) caused scuffs and bumps and braking ultimately forcing people onto the grass and into the road indicate ill-discipline to me.

 

So just because you are used to riding like that and feel nothing is wrong with it does not constitute me having to feel the same way you do about it.

[Grogs]

8 pages of (almost only) bickering.

 

Really dudes - this was a hectic accident with some serious injuries (a colleague of mine was there, saw it, and assisted Victor).

 

I'm tired of sifting through pages and pages of sniping and bickering just to see one post dealing with how Victor actually is.

 

Get over yourselves. ALL this thread should be is a source of updates on Victor's progress and a place to wish him well.

[shaper]

Of course you are welcome to your opinion that my evidence on what I saw as was involved in is unreliable, I will dispute that as you were not there and have no idea of circumstance or events.

 

I did not say that your evidence is unreliable, just that eye-witness reports are notoriously unreliable. This is not an opinion nor is it an attack on you or what you saw. A lot has been written about the unreliability of eyewitness reports and studies have shown it to be like that.

 

I am also not dismissing what you saw. I am suggesting that your interpretation of what you saw is, based on the fact that an accident did occur, wrong.

 

If it was safe to overtake, no accident could have taken place.

 

I recognise that he could not have foreseen a cyclist would fall infront of him, but he could have forseen that a cyclist could, and so should not have started overtaking.

 

And you must be joking that eye witness evidence is not necessary??... did you forget comic sans at this point!!.... The more you talk the less credible you become quite frankly!!

 

No, read again. I did not say that, but perhaps you are too emotionally invested in this to read what I said accurately and understand what it actually was what I said.

 

Ironically, this lack of detachment (which is human nature) is one of the factors that makes eye witness evidence unreliable.

I find it interesting that you look to dismiss eye witness reports and insert your own theories and conclusions.  

 

I have have my fair share of cycling accidents, broken ribs and still have a plate in my collar bone.  You are also dismissive of the reporting of events by trying to insert your own conjecture, yet know nothing of me, my aptitude and the fact that I have a clear black and white clinical nature (but that is of no matter here).  The fact is you are dismissive.  

 

As you seem to know all that went on without being there, perhaps you can advise what kit Victor was wearing? You think many would remember that, especially from someone just about to latch onto an unfamiliar group and then witnessing an accident in a blink of a millisecond?

 

I recognise that he could not have foreseen a cyclist would fall infront of him, but he could have forseen that a cyclist could, and so should not have started overtaking.

 

Tell me, when a jaywalker just steps out in front of your car and you knock him over and you are just driving on the road but aware of people walking next to the road, do you stop driving because they are and you should forsee that they might step in front of your car?... lets be real about this!!

 

Keep talking, you digging yourself deeper trying to prove your own conjecture with baseless anecdotes.

 

As for emotionally invested, no and yes.  No, I did not know Victor and Yes because he is a fellow cyclist and Yes because the driver of the truck was involved in what is best described as a freak accident and Yes because 2 families are now impacted.

 

And what a joke to try an insinuate an emotional investment on someone on the outside looking in and reporting concisely and clearly what was seen.  No theories, no maybe's, no conjecture... just facts as witnessed!!

[Chris_]

8 pages of (almost only) bickering.

 

 

I know! it helped pass an awful Monday (and now Tuesday..) so quickly! 

 

keep those hangbags flying

[Patchelicious]

 

 

If it was safe to overtake, no accident could have taken place.

 

 

There are many many scenarios where an accident could occur when it was initially safe to overtake.

 

Seems this thread has now gotten to the point where proving somebody else wrong is the main goal. Im out.

[Eugene]

I haven't read all 8 pages, but has somebody mentioned that the law requires all cyclists to ride in single file.

 

If they were in a bunch, then both cycling groups were breaking the law. In that way, the truck driver cannot be 100% to blame (as mentioned in some of the posts) the bunches should shoulder some of the responsibility.

 

If they were already in single file when the truck approached, there would have been no need to "funnel" in and probably no touching of wheels.

[Sven137]

Well - I think I disagree here - he could have not overtaken the group on the left and just waited behind them till the oncoming group had passed him and the way ahead was clear - this is what he should have done and what my understanding of the road traffic act obliges him to do.

Rather....  shouldn't the cyclists have been in the reserved cycling lane ?

[V12man]

Rather....  shouldn't the cyclists have been in the reserved cycling lane ?

Please read the whole thread first.

[Vetplant]

There are many many scenarios where an accident could occur when it was initially safe to overtake.

 

Seems this thread has now gotten to the point where proving somebody else wrong is the main goal. Im out.

True that.

 

More useful discussion to be had with Kallie on the definition of Crimes Against Humanity.

 

Strongs to Shaper with the emotional baggage of wittnessing this crash up close and to Victor with the road to recovery.

 

I'm out.

[eddy]

I find it interesting that you look to dismiss eye witness reports and insert your own theories and conclusions.  

 

I have not inserted any of my own theories and conclusions.

 

The fact that eye witness evidence is notoriously untrustworthy is well understood and has been documented as such by courts, scientists and academics. I won't bore you with copious detail, but here is just one (scholarly) article. Read it, you WILL learn something and may even find it useful:

 

https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=ijaaa

 

I have have my fair share of cycling accidents, broken ribs and still have a plate in my collar bone.  You are also dismissive of the reporting of events by trying to insert your own conjecture, yet know nothing of me, my aptitude and the fact that I have a clear black and white clinical nature (but that is of no matter here).  The fact is you are dismissive.  

 

I am not dismissive of you. I am merely pointing out the scientific and jurisprudential fact that eye witness reports have overwhelmingly been shown to be unreliable.

 

​NOTE: not that you, or even your evidence is unreliable but only that eye-witness reports as a rule are less reliable than generally considered.

 

As you seem to know all that went on without being there, perhaps you can advise what kit Victor was wearing? You think many would remember that, especially from someone just about to latch onto an unfamiliar group and then witnessing an accident in a blink of a millisecond?

 

Sarcasm does not advance the discussion. I was not there. But unless this incident lies beyond the field of research in the reliability of eyewitness reports, it is likely that there will be little conformity in people's description. Refer any of the thousands of  academic studies and/or court judgement that had to deal with the phenomenon. 

 

 

Tell me, when a jaywalker just steps out in front of your car and you knock him over and you are just driving on the road but aware of people walking next to the road, do you stop driving because they are and you should forsee that they might step in front of your car?... lets be real about this!!

 

No, but on Sunday 1 April 1979 at about 15h00 heading up the hill on Glenhove Ave towards the corner of  5th street Houghton, a drunk pedestrian I had seen, stumbled off the pavement and straight into me on my motorbike. If you are interested enough you will find all of this detail in the inquest report as he did not make it. 

 

I was exonerated but it changed my life and not only because of the time I spent in hospital, on crutches and with a shorter leg. I will ALWAYS consider what stupid moves others may make and moderate by actions accordingly. It won't keep me safe, but it improves my odds.  

 

Accordingly, I don't ride in or join groups in the Cradle, I only ride in races with full road closure, gladly drop out of a bunch if guys are riding erratically and when driving in the Cradle never overtake a bunch of cyclists if there is any oncoming traffic. I am happy to sit behind and wait. It rarely costs me any time.

 

So yes, I AM real about it.

 

Keep talking, you digging yourself deeper trying to prove your own conjecture with baseless anecdotes.

 

I have dealt with this politely above.

 

As for emotionally invested, no and yes.  No, I did not know Victor and Yes because he is a fellow cyclist and Yes because the driver of the truck was involved in what is best described as a freak accident and Yes because 2 families are now impacted.

 

And what a joke to try an insinuate an emotional investment on someone on the outside looking in and reporting concisely and clearly what was seen.  No theories, no maybe's, no conjecture... just facts as witnessed!!

 

I did not mention emotional investment in a negative context. You saw something traumatic. It must affect you. And again, objectively, trauma is one of the things that affect accuracy of eye witness statements. Not my opinion. It is part of the scientific consensus.