CSA fining members for riding choc mtb

[Frosty]

Frosty, it used to be the case that an event had to be sanctioned by the governing body, this has changed after the court ruling of CSA vs PPA, i assure you I am well aware of the documentation that needs to be submitted to comply with SASREA and a sanctioning letter is not one of them

You are right. We only need to submit the controlling body's contact details, on the form - but the guy submitting the docs includes the sanctioning letter (out of habit - he's been doing it for more years than most of us have fingers and toes).

[Rolling Stone]

I am not sure i agree with you DnD

 

Lets separate the points you mentioned,Compliance: Compliance to what? As mentioned you are not obliged to sanction your event with CSA however there is certain compliance that has to be in place with regards to SASRIA, if your event complies with this you are allowed to host your event. Its a different matter for example if a church wants to have a quick fund raiser and hosts a bike race without complying to SASRIA requirements, the police then have full right to stop the event.

 

Marketing: What marketing are you speaking about? the CSA event calender and the SMSes that occasionally go out? ask yourself how many people make decisions to partake in an event because of a SMS, i myself never check the CSA calender, i check the well known online entry portals to see what events are coming up.

 

I would love to hear the basis of your statement that a properly marketed and sanctioned event shouldn't have trouble making enough money. I can mention a number of well marketed events sanctioned by CSA that have struggled to break even let alone make a profit.

 

I do however agree with you that in principle sanctioning an event should weed out the fly by night organizers.but then CSA should start protecting and supporting the event organizers that have been around for many years!

 

so to quote you "simple stuff really" not really that simple after all!

If you are a CSA member you should be getting regular emails about events and sometimes they will also send out emails about a specific event to members in a specific region only, if requested. like the one that went out about the JHB grand prix and Gauteng Track Champs recently

 

I have found in a number of cases that certain service providers block CSA emails but it does not reflect as undelivered on CSA side. I was one of them.(Mweb is the big culprit here) If you are not getting your CSA mails uou need to make contact with the CSA communications lady. or change your email to a Gmail on the CSA web site and inform them that you have changed it.

 

I have never had an SMS from CSA, do they really communicate via SMS?

Edited November 8, 2018 by Rolling Stone

[gogo@]

SANS 10366 deals with Health and Safety at events.

 

Each city, or province, has its own By-laws regarding this.

 

For the Western Cape it was Gazetted as the "Community Fire Safety By Law". It details the processes and what must be in place etc etc ....

 

Once you understand the full process it makes even less sense why a CSA-tax must be paid .... by anybody but the hardcore racers ...

 

 

 

You need hair on your teeth to jump through all these hoops !!! THANKS to those that put together these "fun rides" for us.

Actually this is one of my duties for our event committee - doing the paperwork and getting the race sanctioned. The application forms for event clearance do ask if you have sanctioning from your national sports body. It’s funny because you have to get this clearance to be sanctioned and application is made months before the CSA sanctioning comes through so, technically, you have to tell a porky to get your clearance! This is the Eastern Cape.

So I still wonder, how do you do this if you drop CSA?

[Thor Buttox]

I cannot wait for Mr Joffe's book.

I would be surprised if salaries weren't also to include 'travel and entertainment' as reimbursements not properly taxed. But that is just a hypothetical.

[Face Plant]

I agree, some races get sanctioned and don't have some/many of the boxes ticked.

 

There in lies a problem - CSA signs off without seeing the documents, and the Metro also sign off... but the liability rests with the organiser. 

Frosty you are 100% correct and therein lies the problem for me, CSA want your event to be sanctioned but i have never seen a CSA official go over a route prior to a race (road and MTB) they have commissars at races that pass the buck back to the event organizer if there are any challenges from athletes so what value do they add? 

 

I have seen on numerous occasions that CSA do not even send officials to handle day licenses, it then becomes the event organizers problem to allocate somebody to handle that on their behalf.

 

We have on more than one occasion had to pay for two commissars at an event with less than 300 athletes because the one is in training and has to build up experience (which is great) but why should the event have to pay the fee for that? 

 

whenever this argument comes up regarding sanctioning of an event the matter of insurance is always brought up so let me give my opinion on that. As an event organizer it is great to know that you have insurance in place in case of an accident BUT with CSA's track record regarding finances do i know for certain that there will be cover? NO... As you mentioned, the event organizer is ultimately responsible so if CSA says "ooops sorry" we forgot to pay our insurance premium last month so you didn't have cover for your event, you as organizer remain liable for any claims. And that is why i would rather take out cover myself than hope that your event is covered.

[Face Plant]

Actually this is one of my duties for our event committee - doing the paperwork and getting the race sanctioned. The application forms for event clearance do ask if you have sanctioning from your national sports body. It’s funny because you have to get this clearance to be sanctioned and application is made months before the CSA sanctioning comes through so, technically, you have to tell a porky to get your clearance! This is the Eastern Cape.

So I still wonder, how do you do this if you drop CSA?

Have a look at the top of the sasrea application form, it says "LETTERHEAD OF EVENT ORGANIZER (OR CONTROLLING BODY IF PREPARING

SCHEDULE ON BEHALF OF EVENT ORGANIZER)" so you can leave out the details of the governing body further down in the application or note it as N/A  if you are doing the application yourself .... hope this helps

Edited November 9, 2018 by Face Plant

[DJR]

Very interesting and enlightening to get first hand feedback from people who are at the coalface of organizing events.

[DieselnDust]

Why are you now taking a swipe at the organiser of Believe, who came here and made a very fair and balanced post?

 

Because I don't believe serving alcohol at a bicycle race is responsible event organising. My opinion which I'm sure you will find issue with.

[DieselnDust]

I am not sure i agree with you DnD

 

Lets separate the points you mentioned,Compliance: Compliance to what? As mentioned you are not obliged to sanction your event with CSA however there is certain compliance that has to be in place with regards to SASRIA, if your event complies with this you are allowed to host your event. Its a different matter for example if a church wants to have a quick fund raiser and hosts a bike race without complying to SASRIA requirements, the police then have full right to stop the event.

 

Marketing: What marketing are you speaking about? the CSA event calender and the SMSes that occasionally go out? ask yourself how many people make decisions to partake in an event because of a SMS, i myself never check the CSA calender, i check the well known online entry portals to see what events are coming up.

 

I would love to hear the basis of your statement that a properly marketed and sanctioned event shouldn't have trouble making enough money. I can mention a number of well marketed events sanctioned by CSA that have struggled to break even let alone make a profit.

 

I do however agree with you that in principle sanctioning an event should weed out the fly by night organizers.but then CSA should start protecting and supporting the event organizers that have been around for many years! 

 

so to quote you "simple stuff really" not really that simple after all!

 

 

 

WRT compliance I refer the the requirements necessary to host licensed riders at your event. The UCI rule covers a few aspects including safety of their actors (riders) and trying to ensure that an event stands up to a minimum criteria. Clearly CSA doesn't always hold event organisers to this standard and there is many reasons for this, resource constraint being an obvious issue.

 

Marketing: I typically don't participate  in events that are not on the CSA, WPMTBC, PPA , or Cycletour calendars. Simply put, despite the issues that each of these bodies might have, have organised events and done volunteer work within those organisations I know that the safety aspects have been looked at and covered. In the past I have seen many event organisers get away with the minimum. So for me in the Western Cape that's the event marketing areas I go to.

Foran event organiser, there is benefit to having a stronger field. It attracts sponsors and provides an opportunity for the sponsors brands, clubs, etc to be showcased. Charge a small fee for a after race hospitality area where gazebo's can be errected.

 

If events are charging appropriately for the entries and are offering post event services then they should making money. Why would anyone want to host events at a loss unless the event is a loss leader for another area of their business where the benefit is seen?

[Rolling Stone]

With Tegards to Day Licenses

R5 of the R 35 goes for admin costs yowards the admin

I some cases the event organiser prefers to donthis themselves and are given the R 5 admin fee for their trouble

[Danger Dassie]

As an aside, the fulls SASREA act can be found here: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/a2_2010.pdf 

 

And some informative general info: 

 

http://www.pro-systems.co.za/live-events/how-sasrea-act-affects-events/

 

INCORPORATING LEGISLATIVE CHANGES INTO INDUSTRY GOVERNANCE (CSA)
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53f5fb7ce4b0cab4a7fe8561/t/53fcd42fe4b0f7be79de8102/1409078319256/1.Part+11A_Safety+%26+Security+Overview.pdf

[Rolling Stone]

Just something else that may come as a surprise to many of you.

CGC has only received Day license fees from one race so far this year. and that is for the Satelite

that is for all races held in the central and western gauteng region

So If you paid a Day license anywhere in this region go ask the race organiser what he did with the money.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Rolling Stone

[Face Plant]

Just something else that may come as a surprise to many of you.

CGC has only received Day license fees from one race so far this year. and that is for the Satelite

that is for all races held in the central and western gauteng region

So If you paid a Day license anywhere in this region go ask the race organiser what he did with the money.

The only conclusion i can make from this is that the day licenses were handled by the event organizers? this is part of what i am saying, how can you expect somebody else to take care of your income? this creates a potentially massive problem.

 

Lets say a rider crashes in the event, he has paid his day license fee and therefore by default is covered by CSA's medical insurance right? what if the money was taken but not paid to CSA? Is the rider then still covered? I can just imagine the ****storm that would be caused. The day license management is so flawed that i would put money on it that CSA has no idea of who paid day licenses so in the event of a claim i can just imagine the nightmare for both parties.

 

What would be the best solution is if events insist on riders being licensed upfront to be able to take part in an event like some events do such as the Trans Baviaans . If it wasn't for the Trans Baviaans i certainly would have no other reason to be a CSA member but it would definitely take care of the problem. But again it needs to be worth it for events to do this.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Face Plant