The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

Myles, perhaps it’s due to how I’ve framed some arguments, preconceived notions and biases, or a combination of all of them (or even none of them), but this isn’t a power struggle of who’s right and who’s wrong. I don’t want anyone to think that it is.

 

I can just put forward what I believe and understand (based on solid evidence) to be a position of social justice that would result in the greatest net benefit for both human and non-human animals alike. That position is one of the non-exploitation of animals.

 

I’m really saddened by never having been challenged in the way that I challenge others on this thread. Perhaps I’d have a greater sense of empathy for how persons feel when this position is presented to them. Nevertheless, I’ve been an omnivore for 27 years, so I understand the ‘other side’.

 

As to your claims that I’m playing the man, I’ll be more sensitive to that in future. It’s not the intent. I can unfortunately not cuck to appease folks. That I won’t do. If I know there’s solid logic and factual bases for my claims, I’ll present them.

[Odinson]

Don't don't don't don't don't don't don't aaaaarrrghhh... fukkit.

 

Unlike cropping, which kills nothing?

Dave, I’ve never claimed that.

[Odinson]

Don't don't don't don't don't don't don't aaaaarrrghhh... fukkit.

 

Unlike cropping, which kills nothing?

DP.

 

No, DP, not DP. Filthy bugger.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Odinson

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Myles, perhaps it’s due to how I’ve framed some arguments, preconceived notions and biases, or a combination of all of them (or even none of them), but this isn’t a power struggle of who’s right and who’s wrong. I don’t want anyone to think that it is.

 

I can just put forward what I believe and understand (based on solid evidence) to be a position of social justice that would result in the greatest net benefit for both human and non-human animals alike. That position is one of the non-exploitation of animals.

 

I’m really saddened by never having been challenged in the way that I challenge others on this thread. Perhaps I’d have a greater sense of empathy for how persons feel when this position is presented to them. Nevertheless, I’ve been an omnivore for 27 years, so I understand the ‘other side’.

 

As to your claims that I’m playing the man, I’ll be more sensitive to that in future. It’s not the intent. I can unfortunately not cuck to appease folks. That I won’t do. If I know there’s solid logic and factual bases for my claims, I’ll present them.

That's a god move, man

 

Re teh bold bit - it's due to the underlined bit. You don't accept counterpoints. You don't accept compromise. You don't accept studies that go against your pre-conceived ideals. You proseletyse. It's zealotry, pure and simple. 

 

Re the italicised bit - you only accept studies that fit your ideals. It's been seen time and again, and it's tantamount to a gish-gallop which, at the end, takes far more effort to dispel than to just leave alone and let go to misinform many others. 

 

BUT. Carry on fighting your fight. Just bear in mind that YOUR ideals re meat consumption are not actually backed up by all the science. 

[Odinson]

Myles, just two things.

 

If you want me to make claims that I’m posting garbage science, be specific and address the studies. General statements aren’t helpful. The IPCC report as case in point. If you feel that a council of independent scientists from different countries got it wrong, then tell me why I shouldn’t rely on it.

 

Science has similarities with how conclusions are arrived at in a legal trial - a preponderance of evidence. There’ll always be conflicting studies, but I assess each I choose to share on the strength of my understanding of the quality thereof and how it forms part of the overall mosaic.

 

Lastly, careful with your accusations of zealotry. Your ‘I’ll always eat meat no matter what’ can just as easily be labelled the same.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Myles, just two things.

 

If you want me to make claims that I’m posting garbage science, be specific and address the studies. General statements aren’t helpful. The IPCC report as case in point. If you feel that a council of independent scientists from different countries got it wrong, then tell me why I shouldn’t rely on it.

 

Science has similarities with how conclusions are arrived at in a legal trial - a preponderance of evidence. There’ll always be conflicting studies, but I assess each I choose to share on the strength of my understanding of the quality thereof and how it forms part of the overall mosaic.

 

Lastly, careful with your accusations of zealotry. Your ‘I’ll always eat meat no matter what’ can just as easily be labelled the same.

Re science, no. That is a civil case. Science holds a higher bar than that and goes on overwhelming evidence, not a preponderance of.

 

Re my stance on meat. Did you not read my post?! I said and have numerous times previously said I would happily transition to faux meat if it was a viable option.

 

Seriously, man.

 

 

Plus. I don't go around proselytizing the benefits of omnivorism or meat consumption. Vegans by in large, do. So do you. I only step in when you call me an immoral unethical barbarian due to my meat consumption. Which you have done, again, various times. And not only to me.

[Kranswurm]

NOM. Those, along with the jalapeno chilli poppers, their brekkie and the bacon / guac / cheese burger are the only things I order when going there.

 

Teh SPUR that was in Wandsworth, UK, was horrible, though.

Urgh

Dont know how you can eat that crap

[Kranswurm]

Please someone tell me on which aspect I should make a concession.

 

Edit: where a concession would be expected.

You lost my interest long ago

[Kranswurm]

All this talk of Spur

my stomach is rumbling

 

Calamari starter

Spur Fillet with chips and onion rings

Waffle n ice cream

 

Without fail every time we are back in SA

 

Not sure why people don't like Spur food, looks and tastes good imo

 

Sometimes i joke with my wife, we should start a Spur or Mugg n Bean here in the ole Schweiz

What with the lack of variety, i reckon they would be very popular especially in the expat areas

It was great when the kids were young but I much prefer a Hussar or Angus for my steak.Although the Spur in Vic Falls saved our lives after a day's rafting

[Odinson]

Re science, no. That is a civil case. Science holds a higher bar than that and goes on overwhelming evidence, not a preponderance of.

 

Re my stance on meat. Did you not read my post?! I said and have numerous times previously said I would happily transition to faux meat if it was a viable option.

 

Seriously, man.

 

 

Plus. I don't go around proselytizing the benefits of omnivorism or meat consumption. Vegans by in large, do. So do you. I only step in when you call me an immoral unethical barbarian due to my meat consumption. Which you have done, again, various times. And not only to me.

You clearly missed what I’m saying. Preponderance not in relation to a single study, but in relation to the collection thereof, i.e. what do various different studies tell us. FYI, that’s how the IPCC came to their conclusion. They didn’t perform primary research. They relied on the mountain of evidence telling us the same thing.

[Odinson]

You lost my interest long ago

You still stop by to say hello, though.

[Kranswurm]

You still stop by to say hello, though.

 

Because I'm a friendly chappie

[Milkman]

Odi , I mentioned the problem regarding arable land and the farmers in the Karoo or similar places earlier , but didn't really get a reply from you , so I will ask you a question regarding it rather .

Seeing that only about 11% of the world's land area is arable ( the rest is not suitable to plant crops ) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.ARBL.ZS (in SA it's only 10% ) , what would you suggest we do with the land that is not suitable for planting crops ?

In SA 83% of agricultural land is used for grazing . https://www.nda.agric.za/docs/StratPlan07/07sectoral.pdf .

I cannot really see the sheep farmer in the Karoo , or the cattle farmer in the Kalahari , being able to plant soybeans?

Should we therefore just let 80% plus of the worlds land lie idle and remove the people that are currently living there ? They obviously won't be able to even do subsistence farming - seeing that they have to be vegan ?

Edited August 13, 2019 by Milkman

[Odinson]

Milkman, if I missed your question previously, apologies.

 

I’ve got some interesting resources on this on my work laptop, but I’m on holiday right now, so no dice.

 

Suffice to say, there’s no single answer to this and solutions will vary, particularly by region. I know that the UK Vegan Society has a group of folks that help farmers transition from animal ag to something else, usually veganic farming. That being said, solutions in the UK might not be applicable in the Karoo.

 

As to the Karoo scenario, I don’t have a workeable solution, it’s outside my wheelhouse. If plant farming isn’t feasible, then low impact eco tourism comes to mind.

 

Ultimately, there will be people who will have to find a new way to utilise their land as the world continues down this path. This kind of transition happened to the breeders of draft horses, manufacturers of typewriters, etc.

 

Any good businessman/woman needs to understand what the risks are and farmers will need to be ready for what the market will look like in a decade or two.

[stefmeister]

Veganic farming? It's called crop production.

As if that "Veganaury" wasn't cringe worthy enough.

[Milkman]

Milkman, if I missed your question previously, apologies.

I’ve got some interesting resources on this on my work laptop, but I’m on holiday right now, so no dice.

Suffice to say, there’s no single answer to this and solutions will vary, particularly by region. I know that the UK Vegan Society has a group of folks that help farmers transition from animal ag to something else, usually veganic farming. That being said, solutions in the UK might not be applicable in the Karoo.

As to the Karoo scenario, I don’t have a workeable solution, it’s outside my wheelhouse. If plant farming isn’t feasible, then low impact eco tourism comes to mind.

Ultimately, there will be people who will have to find a new way to utilise their land as the world continues down this path. This kind of transition happened to the breeders of draft horses, manufacturers of typewriters, etc.

Any good businessman/woman needs to understand what the risks are and farmers will need to be ready for what the market will look like in a decade or two.

 

Thanks Odi , I appreciate you trying to answer that.

 

I fully understand that times and business change and people have to try and swim with the current to survive.

But this is not a few lantern factories that had to adapt because the light bulb was invented. If almost 90 % of the worlds land area is not suitable for planting crops , and can only be utilized by grazing , you have to admit it’s a bit of a problem for a world of vegans ?

 

The problem that most vegans have ( and I mean this with respect ) is that they usually live in first world countries - and Also mostly in big cities . They therefore live in a bit of a “bubble” and don’t realize how most people in the world live.

 

People don’t realize what a privilege it is to be vegan by choice !