The Veganism Thread

[Robbie Stewart]

So posting pics of meat and saying you want to eat meat on a thread about veganism didn't get the reaction you wanted so you're now wanting to discuss abortion. On a thread about veganism.

 

/scratches head.

Nah, not looking for a reaction, just stating the obvious. Animals are far more important than human life apparently.

 

Noted. Moving on.

[Odinson]

Gen, I can't seem to find it now, but I saw that you posted that you and you're son are iron deficient. 

 

My suggestion would be to load up on dark leafy greens (spinach, kale, arugula, chard). Perhaps 2-3 portions a day, preferably not boiled to death. A neat little trick is to add lemon juice (or any plant high in Vit. C) to the greens, as it boosts absorption. An easy way is to perhaps make a green smoothie for you and Jr. in the morning and then add the other portion as a side at dinner. 

 

It's an option. Supplementation is one too. 

 

Absorption can be affected by a number of things, (gut) dysbiosis is one. 

[Odinson]

I compartmentalize

 

Food...- I eat these

Wildlife - I look at these

Pets - I cuddle these

 

I get that. I've been a meat eater for most of my life. The thing is, there is another way. 

 

The compassion that we extend to our pets and wildlife can be extended to farmed animals too. It's a simple choice. 

[Odinson]

That is disgusting, fullstop. I think those okes should be tied up and the same done to them.

 

But... is that necessary for us to eat animals - NO. So, I agree, this has to stop. But stopping this does not mean we have to cut out meat. It simply means animals that are killed for our consumption must be killed quickly and painlesly - this is possible.

 

Unfortunately, if you want to eat an animal, that animal should be violently killed. You can't humanely kill an animal that does not want to die, especially on an industrial scale. 

[Odinson]

Have you ever been to an abattoir? 

 

I have and it's a fuckin' horror show. 

 

I've slaughtered a sheep with my bare hands. I've hunted. I've killed animals point blank with a rifle. That's why I know that it isn't natural and it isn't necessary. 

 

Like I've said, I've been eating animals for most of my life. I understand where people are coming from. 

[Odinson]

Regarding the plant posts. It's very simple. All plants have the ability to receive input from their environment and respond there to (to varying degrees). They would not have evolved without it. Some have evolved very elaborate and elegant ways to do so. That being said, again, it does not mean that they are sentient, conscious or have the capacity to have subjective experiences. 

 

Even if plants did have feelings/sentience and you truly cared about this, you too would be vegan, as a meat eater's total direct and indirect plant consumption is significantly higher than someone who is plant-based. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Odinson

[Patchelicious]

Regarding the plant posts. It's very simple. All plants have the ability to receive input from their environment and respond there to (to varying degrees). They would not have evolved without it. Some have evolved very elaborate and elegant ways to do so. That being said, again, it does not mean that they are sentient, conscious or have the capacity to have subjective experiences. 

 

Even if plants did have feelings/sentience and you truly cared about this, you too would be vegan, as a meat eater's total direct and indirect plant consumption is significantly higher than someone who is plant-based. 

 

So its not life, but rather consciousness that is the tipping point of your personal decision? I ask this as you cited The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness.

 

​So what about eggs and diary, those foods are not conscious and animals are not killed for it. I know about the mistreatment of animals at some of these farms, but the core of my questions is around the killing of conscious animals statement.

 

Eg: If I have a small holding with a few hens that are free to do what I want, why is not ok to eat one or two their eggs every now and again? I might also have a cow that is my pet, Ill name her Daisy, and she roams around the meadows having a great time, and she give me 500ml of milk a day when she comes and has some of the food that I lovingly give her daily. Neither the mild nor the egg has a conscious and the animals and I have a symbiotic relationship. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Patchelicious

[Odinson]

So its not life, but rather consciousness that is the tipping point of your personal decision? I ask this as you cited The Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness.

 

​So what about eggs and diary, those foods are not conscious and animals are not killed for it. I know about the mistreatment of animals at some of these farms, but the core of my questions is around the killing of conscious animals statement.

 

Eg: If I have a small holding with a few hens that are free to do what I want, why is not ok to eat one or two their eggs every now and again? I might also have a cow that is my pet, Ill name her Daisy, and she roams around the meadows having a great time, and she give me 500ml of milk a day when she comes and has some of the food that I lovingly give her daily. 

 

Valid question and one that is raised very often. 

 

First off, ALL laying hens and dairy cows are slaughtered for their flesh. 

 

Let's start with chickens. An egg may not be conscious, but the hen is. It is a product of its body. Laying hens are forced to live their lives confined in cages, never to see natural light, some have their beaks seared off with a hot blade and they are bred to lay unnaturally high numbers of eggs (~300 per year; wild hens lay ~15 eggs per year). They often suffer from prolapses and the intensification of this breeding is incredibly taxing on their bodies. So, egg production and consumption is inextricably linked to chicken slaughter. 

 

Same with cows. Milk isn't sentient, but the mother cow is. Dairy cows are continuously artificially inseminated, so that they get pregnant and start producing milk. Once the calf is born, it is taken away within hours or days and the mother cow is then put into the intense milking process. The bobby calfs are then taken to small pens and chained by the neck, to the point where they can hardly move. This is done to prevent muscle growth and hardening, so that the infant can then be slaughtered later for veal. Once the dairy cow is 'spent', she gets sent to slaughter. Cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years. A dairy cow can go for between 4 and 6 years before her body gives in, milk production falls and she's not economically viable anymore. So, milk production and consumption is inextricably linked to brutal exploitation and slaughter.  

 

Now, about your backyard chicken. If you bought got the chicken from an industrial hatchery, she'll be laying a very high number of eggs. It would be better for you to feed the eggs back to her, allowing her to replenish lost nutrients, vitamins and so on. If you have a cow, if she is not pregnant, she will not produce milk. If she has a calf, the calf will drink from her. 

[Grease_Monkey]

Unfortunately, if you want to eat an animal, that animal should be violently killed. You can't humanely kill an animal that does not want to die, especially on an industrial scale.

Well you can kill it quickly it you can torture it. Worlds inbetween what is being done to the animals in those videos than what is being done to most of our food - surely you can see the point I'm making?

 

There is no sense in what is being done in the video, and it does not need to happen.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Grease_Monkey

[Patchelicious]

Valid question and one that is raised very often. 

 

First off, ALL laying hens and dairy cows are slaughtered for their flesh. 

 

Let's start with chickens. An egg may not be conscious, but the hen is. It is a product of its body. Laying hens are forced to live their lives confined in cages, never to see natural light, some have their beaks seared off with a hot blade and they are bred to lay unnaturally high numbers of eggs (~300 per year; wild hens lay ~15 eggs per year). They often suffer from prolapses and the intensification of this breeding is incredibly taxing on their bodies. So, egg production and consumption is inextricably linked to chicken slaughter. 

 

Same with cows. Milk isn't sentient, but the mother cow is. Dairy cows are continuously artificially inseminated, so that they get pregnant and start producing milk. Once the calf is born, it is taken away within hours or days and the mother cow is then put into the intense milking process. The bobby calfs are then taken to small pens and chained by the neck, to the point where they can hardly move. This is done to prevent muscle growth and hardening, so that the infant can then be slaughtered later for veal. Once the dairy cow is 'spent', she gets sent to slaughter. Cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years. A dairy cow can go for between 4 and 6 years before her body gives in, milk production falls and she's not economically viable anymore. So, milk production and consumption is inextricably linked to brutal exploitation and slaughter.  

 

Now, about your backyard chicken. If you bought got the chicken from an industrial hatchery, she'll be laying a very high number of eggs. It would be better for you to feed the eggs back to her, allowing her to replenish lost nutrients, vitamins and so on. If you have a cow, if she is not pregnant, she will not produce milk. If she has a calf, the calf will drink from her. 

I'll just delete that as that wasn't what I was asking.

 

Why would I let Pekkles eat her own eggs, when I am lovingly feeding her a well balanced vegan diet? Surely then I could eat one or two of her eggs, she can have the rest if she wants.

[Odinson]

Well you can kill it quickly it you can torture it. Worlds inbetween what is being done to the animals in those videos than what is being done to most of our food - surely you can see the point I'm making?

 

There is no sense in what is being done in the video, and it does not need to happen.

 

Unfortunately, that "most of our food" is not correct. What you see in that video is SOP. SA is very poorly regulated in regards to slaughterhouses and meat production and what happens in SA slaughterhouses is the same as you saw in that video. 

 

Please take the time to watch the following: 

 

Land of Hope and Glory - it shows UK animal farming practices, a country which has very high and well regulated animal welfare practices and regulations. 

 

https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/

 

Then, the same for Dominion - a look into Australian animal farming. 

 

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko

 

Then, if you want to go to the OG, Earthlings: 

 

https://vimeo.com/209647801

[Odinson]

I'll just delete that as that wasn't what I was asking.

 

Why would I let Pekkles eat her own eggs, when I am lovingly feeding her a well balanced vegan diet? Surely then I could eat one or two of her eggs, she can have the rest if she wants.

 

The deleted part is exactly what you were asking. Is dairy and eggs conscious and where that threshold is for deciding to eat it or not. 

 

What is it you're trying to get at Patch? That 7 billion people all have their own "Pekkles"? 

[Gen]

Unfortunately, that "most of our food" is not correct. What you see in that video is SOP. SA is very poorly regulated in regards to slaughterhouses and meat production and what happens in SA slaughterhouses is the same as you saw in that video.

 

Please take the time to watch the following:

 

Land of Hope and Glory - it shows UK animal farming practices, a country which has very high and well regulated animal welfare practices and regulations.

 

https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/

 

Then, the same for Dominion - a look into Australian animal farming.

 

https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko

 

Then, if you want to go to the OG, Earthlings:

 

https://vimeo.com/209647801

Please post the link to the official SA regulations regarding abattoirs so I can see for myself what these regulations are..I assume you know exactly where to find it as you know about it.

[Odinson]

Please post the link to the official SA regulations regarding abattoirs so I can see for myself what these regulations are..I assume you know exactly where to find it as you know about it.

 

Look up the Meat Safety Act and the Animals Protection Act. 

[Mousea]

Valid question and one that is raised very often. 

 

First off, ALL laying hens and dairy cows are slaughtered for their flesh. 

 

Let's start with chickens. An egg may not be conscious, but the hen is. It is a product of its body. Laying hens are forced to live their lives confined in cages, never to see natural light, some have their beaks seared off with a hot blade and they are bred to lay unnaturally high numbers of eggs (~300 per year; wild hens lay ~15 eggs per year). They often suffer from prolapses and the intensification of this breeding is incredibly taxing on their bodies. So, egg production and consumption is inextricably linked to chicken slaughter. 

 

Same with cows. Milk isn't sentient, but the mother cow is. Dairy cows are continuously artificially inseminated, so that they get pregnant and start producing milk. Once the calf is born, it is taken away within hours or days and the mother cow is then put into the intense milking process. The bobby calfs are then taken to small pens and chained by the neck, to the point where they can hardly move. This is done to prevent muscle growth and hardening, so that the infant can then be slaughtered later for veal. Once the dairy cow is 'spent', she gets sent to slaughter. Cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years. A dairy cow can go for between 4 and 6 years before her body gives in, milk production falls and she's not economically viable anymore. So, milk production and consumption is inextricably linked to brutal exploitation and slaughter.  

 

Now, about your backyard chicken. If you bought got the chicken from an industrial hatchery, she'll be laying a very high number of eggs. It would be better for you to feed the eggs back to her, allowing her to replenish lost nutrients, vitamins and so on. If you have a cow, if she is not pregnant, she will not produce milk. If she has a calf, the calf will drink from her. 

Sorry Odison,

But you knowledge of the Dairy Industry is Lacking a huge amount.

My late brother was a dairy farmer and NONE of what you have said above is applicable.

A Dairy cow ONLY gets artificially inseminated when it is "Bulling" this is when a Bull would cover her in nature. Only difference the farmer is now doing this artificially.

I have done the AI course and AI on my Brothers farm.

It is a science and not RANDOM Ai as you make it out to be.

Would LOVE to know where you get your facts from ??

 

It is the type of BS that gives some Vegans a bad name

Edited November 30, 2018 by Mousea

[Gen]

Look up the Meat Safety Act and the Animals Protection Act.

Thought you would have it at the ready.

 

Will go read it.