The Veganism Thread

[Wayne Potgieter]

Indeed. What percent of beef, pork, chicken, milk, eggs, etc comes from mass produced farms, and what comes from free range /specialty fed and how they're treated and produced. Again though, as previously discussed we're looking at animals as very different beings when switching the focus to highlight the need to look at these types of things. One is justifying a view about fairly (?) using them as a commodity, the other is that they're a commodity at all.

 

Conversely, also read about greenwashing. It's a advertising tactic to make people believe things are environmentally friendly. It's been a real hit lately.

At the moment, there is a huge uproar about this in Countdown (woolworths) Australia.

 

In respects of free range eggs, around 45% of eggs sold in NZ and AU are branded as free range, but the current legislation is extremely "loose" as to what free range actually is. The closest version I can source is that hens need to have access to outside for 1 hour a day and that the density of hens cannot exceed 17 hens per square metre. that density applies to both inside and outside.

 

Also, it appears that there is a small loophole in that the one hour a day ruling, has no definitive start time. So farmers (for meat chickens) are letting them out for the 1 hour on day of slaughter and thus meeting the requirement.

 

So let's recap. 17 chickens per square metre and 1 hour of outside just before you die is considered free range. 

 

The truly disgusting part is that farmers are pushing back stating that even this is not feasible. 

 

So yes, greed is a hell of a drug.

[Wayne Potgieter]

See this is interesting, I'm always skeptical when reading about issues like this because 99% of the content you find is not written from a neutral perspective. Which makes it hard to see is this being blown up out of proportion, or is it actual fact.

 

Thanks, I'll do some further reading up.

Also need to understand what free range actually means for things like cows and chickens when it comes to eggs and milk.

See my reply above to Chris around free range.

 

NZ is a huge dairy country (one of the largest i think) and the cows here have a good life (at least compared to other countries) but even here what happens is frankly barbaric. Cows are impregnated every two years to continue producing milk, male calf's are slaughtered almost instantly for pet products and the cycle keeps going on and on. Studies are being conducted around the cortisol levels in cows and they are starting to show the highest levels of cortisol in any mammal. Cortisol is a stress hormone mammals produce when stressed out.  The troubling thing with cortisol is that it is passed from the cow to the milk and thus into humans. So essentially, we stress the cows out to a point of exhaustion and then drink the stress juice thus stressing ourselves out! Humans are weird right?

 

Granted, these studies are new and have limited sample size, so policy cannot be changed based on this alone, but at least they are starting to measure it and explore it.

 

Your strategy to do your own research and avoid the propaganda is good. There are zealots and misinformation on both sides. conducting balanced research with a critical mindset is sadly a skill that is deeply lacking in the general population so kudos to you for using this method. The fact that you are willing to talk to others and adapt your opinion as the facts present themselves is a great thing, irrespective of where you end up.

[Wayne Potgieter]

Maybe given is the wrong word, as I do not mean it from a belief POV.

 

If I may rephrase as my idea/intent in the statement remains the same - it is a privilege to take from nature and doing so should be done responsibly.

 

Humans are generally smarter than animals, whether you believe in a Deity that placed you here, in evolution or prometheus creating you on the down low, we as humans have a responsibility to look after the earth. Christianity believes mankind was created to have dominion over the animal kingdom. I was raised Christian so I think that might be where my wording came from.

 

Doesn't offend, don't stress

 

Thanks for this. 

 

You are absolutely correct about humans being smarter than animals and as the "dominant" species on the planet, we naturally must take even more responsibility towards protecting the rest.  Let's be honest, we've done a pretty poor job of it so far.

 

If we want things to change, we have to be willing to change.

[Stretch]

You should see the biltong drying machines I used to build.

 

I used to convert double door old school office cupboards (the beige and brown ones) into huge biltong driers.

 

Life is a journey!

Dried mango now!

[Wayne Potgieter]

Dried mango now!

LOL - I actually do own a dehydrator that i use for hiking meals.

 

Vegan hiking meals are really expensive and this way we can make our own. Dried mango and pineapple is totally awesome.

[Chris_]

So I learned something new - South Africa has no legislation around labelling poultry as free range or organic.

 

Each retailer sets their own rules. Granted a lot of them seem to be fairly similar - 15 per sqm, no disease, x hours of real or artificial light, x cms of space to feed from, x hundred per nest. But it really is a free for all. There are a lot of private associations that will officially mark your products but its really one word against the other.

 

Also read an article that (I think recently) said 5% of chickens in SA are 'free range'. Only. 

 

I wonder if its the same for all other animal farming? probably is.

[Cois]

We wanted to see if the Food haters market in Lynnwood lane had Herbivore stock today.

The person we asked was a total waste of the title human. The person did not know what vegan was and was super rude to my wife. After attempting to explain what vegan was we were rudely told to go ask at the meat counter for meatless patties.

 

What wound me up was the way the person spoke to my wife. I had to hold me in not to pick up a steak and ask the steak for help, because the piece of steak knew more of what was going on in the shop than the people working in the shop

[Cois]

Oh I placed an order at Herbivore to test their produce to see if it can work to go more plant based than meat based seeing that the new meds I am on pushed my blood-pressure into the sky. 143/125 is not much fun

[Grass Muncher]

We wanted to see if the Food haters market in Lynnwood lane had Herbivore stock today.

The person we asked was a total waste of the title human. The person did not know what vegan was and was super rude to my wife. After attempting to explain what vegan was we were rudely told to go ask at the meat counter for meatless patties.

 

What wound me up was the way the person spoke to my wife. I had to hold me in not to pick up a steak and ask the steak for help, because the piece of steak knew more of what was going on in the shop than the people working in the shop

I know the feeling of people not understanding and being rude.

 

I went to a cheese shop called Cheese Gourmet near Linden Highschool. I asked the owners of the shop if they had any vegan cheese in stock. The lady yelled and blabbered about how disgusting vegan cheese is and that vegan cheese is an abomination and that it shouldn't even be called cheese.

 

She then said that she had vegetarian cheese and that vegetarian cheese doesn't contain any life cultures. ????‍♂️

[Patchelicious]

To be fair, when it comes to yelling and being rude, the militant vegans are hard to beat.

[Wayne Potgieter]

To be fair, when it comes to yelling and being rude, the militant vegans are hard to beat.

LOL.

 

Although to be more fair, any group of people with the word "militant" in front of them are pretty rude and loud.

 

But yes, crossfitters, vegans etc 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Wayne Potgieter

[MTBMonkey]

So I learned something new - South Africa has no legislation around labelling poultry as free range or organic.

 

Each retailer sets their own rules. Granted a lot of them seem to be fairly similar - 15 per sqm, no disease, x hours of real or artificial light, x cms of space to feed from, x hundred per nest. But it really is a free for all. There are a lot of private associations that will officially mark your products but its really one word against the other.

 

Also read an article that (I think recently) said 5% of chickens in SA are 'free range'. Only. 

 

I wonder if its the same for all other animal farming? probably is.

One of the most abused animals on the planet...chickens...

Most get to live what little of a patheitc life they have been given in a shoe box size cage...

 

Humankind.....Abuserkind.....

[Wayne Potgieter]

Crispy salt and pepper tofu pho.

 

[100Tours]

I know the feeling of people not understanding and being rude.

 

I went to a cheese shop called Cheese Gourmet near Linden Highschool. I asked the owners of the shop if they had any vegan cheese in stock. The lady yelled and blabbered about how disgusting vegan cheese is and that vegan cheese is an abomination and that it shouldn't even be called cheese.

 

She then said that she had vegetarian cheese and that vegetarian cheese doesn't contain any life cultures. ????‍♂️

 

They're a brilliant shop if you like cheese and pork products, or free range eggs, but perhaps you might expect that they're not particularly vegan focused? Have you tried asking for vegan products in a butchery - it just feels like you set yourself up for that.

 

Vegetarian cheese is however an important distinction for many people. French cheeses in particular are often made with animal rennet (rennet is an abbatoir product from cows/beef). The majority of South African cheeses are made with vegetarian rennet, and therefore vegetarian. Both use live cultures.

[100Tours]

You are absolutely correct about humans being smarter than animals and as the "dominant" species on the planet, we naturally must take even more responsibility towards protecting the rest.  Let's be honest, we've done a pretty poor job of it so far.

 

If we want things to change, we have to be willing to change.

 

Yes absolutely, but we have also learned that we have to be careful about the consequences and goals of the changes we make.

 

This thread for me has revolved around whether we make food (and other) choices based on the reliance on animals or insects, impact on the planet, or personal health and wellness. Your answers will be different depending on which your priorities are. 

[Jurgens Smit]

Crispy salt and pepper tofu pho.

 

I made some this weekend with a marinade sent to me from a friend living in Xi'an, they love their spices so it's pretty hot.

 

But basically, ginger, garlic, soy sauce, hoisin sauce, chillies (sliced or paste) as well as chilli oil, sugar, sherry (the wine they use in china is hard to find here), lemon juice ( I added some zest as well), spring onions.

 

They use more spicy chillies which I'm not a fan of personally, prefer flavor over burn, so bought some poblano from Azteca and just toasted them first.

 

Left the marinade overnight then coated in some flower and fried in olive oil. It came out pretty good, will need to play with the oil used. Was pretty good, would still need to play around to see how to tie this into a full meal, but I can definitely use this or similar in a "vegan" meal day.

 

Another thing I'm quite keen to try is the chinese steamed buns, while I was in Shanghai I had a mushroom stuffed Sheng Jian Bao, which was amazing. You basically just fold them like you would a dumpling, fry them, then when the bases are done, add a little water, drop the heat and put a lid over the pan to steam them till done.