The Gender Thread

[Stretch]

Do you disagree that environmental circumstances can play a role?

I have no knowledge of any scientific or other social study that back this theory up, so I neither agree with it or disagree with it. I'm not sure how your environment would dictate you gender identity though.

 

I would be interested in an example of what environment would cause someone to want to change their gender.

[Stretch]

Bit uncalled for considering his relatively well toned questions.

Maybe... But excuse me for being a little bit sarcastic when its 2019 and still people jump to the conclusion that because someone is doing something outside of the norm if what society dictates.. It must be because of a mental condition

[The Ouzo]

I have no knowledge of any scientific or other social study that back this theory up, so I neither agree with it or disagree with it. I'm not sure how your environment would dictate you gender identity though.

 

I would be interested in an example of what environment would cause someone to want to change their gender.

how about something very basic.

a child is born with male parts. parents dress child and treat child as female its entire life.

[Stretch]

how about something very basic.

a child is born with male parts. parents dress child and treat child as female its entire life.

At some point very earlyin that childs development he is going to realise that he is not in fact a girl and will begin to question the identity he has been forced into. I have heard a story which was the opposite. How a boy was born and despite the parents best intentions he always moved towards playing with his sister's toys. He was born a boy and raised a boy... If environment plays such a role why would his environment that he was raised in not force him down a path of remaining a boy instead of transitioning to a girl later in life?

[Patchelicious]

Maybe... But excuse me for being a little bit sarcastic when its 2019 and still people jump to the conclusion that because someone is doing something outside of the norm if what society dictates.. It must be because of a mental condition

No he did not jump to conclusions. He did not say it MUST be a mental issue, he specifically said he wants to sit with people and understand the difference and their journey. Go read that post again.

 

You jumped to a conclusion.

[Stretch]

No he did not jump to conclusions. He did not say it MUST be a mental issue, he specifically said he wants to sit with people and understand the difference and their journey. Go read that post again.

 

You jumped to a conclusion.

You see...I wouldn't even consider that it might be a cause. It shouldn't even be raised as a "reason" in the first place in my honest opinion.

 

And secondly.. If you were to sit down with someone and have a talk, how exactly would you assess their mental state over a cup of coffee, or even get an in depth understanding of their background. You wouldn't, you would listen to their story and hear things from their viewpoint without letting your own prejudice or bias influence what they are telling you

[The Ouzo]

At some point very earlyin that childs development he is going to realise that he is not in fact a girl and will begin to question the identity he has been forced into. I have heard a story which was the opposite. How a boy was born and despite the parents best intentions he always moved towards playing with his sister's toys. He was born a boy and raised a boy... If environment plays such a role why would his environment that he was raised in not force him down a path of remaining a boy instead of transitioning to a girl later in life?

you're arguing absolutes. We all know that different people react differently to environmental factors.

[Rocket-Boy]

I was being very sarcastic because that is how homosexuality was "treated" not too long ago. Why are people quick to assume that living outside of the norms of what we believe are how things should be, can automatically be a cause of an environment or the person's mental state of mind. genetics is very complex, but the fact that people can be born intersex leads me to believe that it is very possible that you can be born a female in a males body or vica versa

Its a valid point, in this day and age almost everyone will have had many interactions with homosexuals. Its not so much the case for intersex or whatever the correct term is nowdays(I honestly dont know what it is)

 

I have a bunch of homosexual friends, I have heard all of their stories and from that I gained a proper understanding of what they have gone through. It also drives me a bit insane when people try to insinuate that their homosexuality is a choice or possibly the result of something that may have happened to them in the past. It isnt, its just how they were born!

[TheKaiser]

My take on it is that classifying a person in binary terms as male or female is bound to be problematic, especially considering the full spectrum of variation across all dimensions.

 

There are a couple of perspectives to this - biological, psychological, and the messiest of all when the previous two are combined.

 

Is there a universally agreed upon list of criteria to be used to classify a person? Does it even really matter in the greater scheme of things?

[The Ouzo]

You see...I wouldn't even consider that it might be a cause. It shouldn't even be raised as a "reason" in the first place in my honest opinion.

 

And secondly.. If you were to sit down with someone and have a talk, how exactly would you assess their mental state over a cup of coffee, or even get an in depth understanding of their background. You wouldn't, you would listen to their story and hear things from their viewpoint without letting your own prejudice or bias influence what they are telling you

your view that there can be no mental cause is just as narrow minded as the view that its all mental.

 

As for the conversation, again it looks like you did not properly read what I posted, I admitted I would not have been able to put into the words the questions I'd need to ask.

[Stretch]

you're arguing absolutes. We all know that different people react differently to environmental factors.

In not denying that.. But the way your first question was worded was that you would like to determine if it was the environment or their mental state.. Like that could be the only reason why someone would need to question their gender. Do you accept that genetics are complicated and that it may well be related to that alone

[Thor Buttox]

Let me add my 5c:

 

The only thing that anyone can say on this thread is that they have no idea what the truth is. Stretch cannot say anything from a personal sample of one. Others cannot say it is all mental with no experience at all.

 

Let's say what is categorically true:

- human gender is a spectrum

- environment always has a hidden hand. The sum of everyone's experience contributes not necessarily to their existence but how they react to it.

- the percentage of suicide and mental anguish in the trans community is much higher than average.

 

Now both sides will read that and find a way to go berzerk, but it is true. If you attribute causality to the mental anguish and then say it corresponds to the coming out as trans, or whether you say the factual existence of a trans then contributes to mental anguish is an OPINION. Nothing more. And it depends on item 2 above. Which itself requires 1.

 

Argue all you want but atleast think about it properly.

 

This all reminds me of the twats who think they never landed on the moon. When pointed out on the one hand that evidence of our presence is actually there through a telescope they find a way to come up with some other nonsense denial. When pointed out that if they don't like what is there, that the fact that a Russian denial ISN'T there when it would definitely be of the US didn't make it, they come up with some other nonsense. But all it proves in the end is that they cannot think properly and that knowing of the landing itself is of fundamentally no value to them personally. For landing, read a specific person's sexuality.

[The Ouzo]

In not denying that.. But the way your first question was worded was that you would like to determine if it was the environment or their mental state.. Like that could be the only reason why someone would need to question their gender. Do you accept that genetics are complicated and that it may well be related to that alone

this is where these conversation/discussions/debates go sour. One party picks up nuances from the other parties words which were not meant to be there. Its mostly why i dont engage in these discussions as everything gets sidetracked and it takes 20 minutes to construct one sentence to make sure it cant be interpreted as something else. Everyone these days is just so highly offended and ready to pounce.

 

I dont have the vocabulary to put it into words that wont offend/assume.

 

My first post was from a point of view that I genuinely would like to know how it comes about that someone concludes they are in the wrong body.

[Stretch]

your view that there can be no mental cause is just as narrow minded as the view that its all mental.

 

As for the conversation, again it looks like you did not properly read what I posted, I admitted I would not have been able to put into the words the questions I'd need to ask.

Look..I get what you are saying.. And I think they I have answered and explained my response in response to patches comments. I am not saying that misfiring neurons would not cause someone to want to change their gender.. But I would assume that it would be contribute a very very small percentage of cases.

 

The point I'm trying to make I guess overall is... why do we even care why people want to change their gender? What business is it of ours?

[Stretch]

this is where these conversation/discussions/debates go sour. One party picks up nuances from the other parties words which were not meant to be there. Its mostly why i dont engage in these discussions as everything gets sidetracked and it takes 20 minutes to construct one sentence to make sure it cant be interpreted as something else. Everyone these days is just so highly offended and ready to pounce.

 

I dont have the vocabulary to put it into words that wont offend/assume.

 

My first post was from a point of view that I genuinely would like to know how it comes about that someone concludes they are in the wrong body.

Couldn't agree more.. And maybe I did misconstrue your intent in the first post.. But it got us down a path to discuss so all good.

[The Ouzo]

The point I'm trying to make I guess overall is... why do we even care why people want to change their gender? What business is it of ours?

Because I am asked to be more understanding and open minded about these people, in order for me to do that my mind needs to understand why they do that.

 

If someone tells me not to do something I am more likely to comply when I know why I should not do it.