Mountain bike riding style filter not only for dual-suspension

[Hairy]

11 hours ago, Nick said:

Hi martinza

Thanks for the feedback. I meant to get back to sooner but the answer is long. 

It's a valid question and one I agonised over when deciding all the Classifieds categories and facets (it was a massive task, the spreadsheet is mind-numbing). In the end, I decided not to have "Riding Style" filter for Hardtail.

There are two sides that need to be considered in any Classifieds category decision: 1) creating the advert, and 2) browsing/filtering for it.

Filtering your search is benefitted by having more filters but creating your advert only gets more complex as you increase the requirements. We try to strike a balance here. And in this case, I decided to leave out "Riding Style" filter for Hardtails to simplify the advert listing process.

The Bike Hub Classifieds has a wide range of sellers with massively differing levels of knowledge. It has to cater for complete newbies up to the most knowledgeable in the country all in one system. Unlike an eCommerce store or brand website, there isn't an employee creating every listing with expert knowledge (even then online stores still get it wrong). We don't know who might be making the advert. People get confused, they get it wrong, or they simple don't know things. Not everyone shares the same level of interested in the technical side of cycling.

So we try to design an advert creation form that is easy to complete (spoiler: there's going to big design change to the ad creation form in the next week or two that I hope everyone will appreciate - I'm looking forward to to the feedback on that once it's live). But this also means that sometimes there isn't all the information that the searcher might like. We always prefer to have the bike listed than not being listed. The thinking is that you can always enquire further if you're interested which is better than never having a chance to see it at all. It can be intimidating not knowing the answers to questions.

Anyway, this was my thinking when deciding to not filter "Riding Style" in the Hardtail category:

1. The Hardtail category has a high proportion of newbies/low end bikes, so I'd like the advert creation form to have fewer questions to avoid them getting overwhelmed and abandoning. We want Bike Hub to be friendly to newcomers rather than scaring them.
2. Following on point 1, less knowledgeable riders don't know the distinction between and XC hardtail and Trail/Enduro Hardatil. Don't believe me? Go look at all the Anthems and Epics listed as Trail/Enduro bikes in the Dual Sus category here.
3. With reference to point 2, it's more than likely that the filter will get flooded with bikes that don't fit the description and end up having limited use.
4. While trail hardtails are hugely awesome, they are not all that common. So leaving out a potentially confusing field for a low volume item is a justifiable omission. 

Obviously, "Riding Style" is not the only consideration, there are many other facets that are considered for inclusion or omission from each category and sub-category. This is just the narrow reasoning for this case.

The reality is that with a public created content, there is always going to be some inaccuracies and less than ideal filters. Especially for the more niche and knowledgeable searchers.

We're hoping that with some thoughtful design and feedback from the community (like this thread), we can make it as easy to use and accurate as possible for all users in the future.

Can you create a drop down for bikes with Tan Wall Tyres so that they can go to the forefront of all searches.

#TanWalls4TheWin

[Robbie Stewart]

38 minutes ago, ChristiaanSt said:

The famous James May once said that owning a Fiat Panda was more fun than a Ferrari as he could push it to its limits and drive on the edge on any road. Ferrari you have to take to a track to achieve this....

Same is for having a slack enduro hardtail. The simplest trails become crazy fast when you ride it and your line choices and other choices of direction has to be on point. Dual sus you can get away with a lot more mistakes.

I own both and I can tell you that the times I ride my hardtail I think I am going stupid fast and I must have a PB on Strava only to be disappointed to see that it wasn't. It puts the fun back in to the simple trails on your local network.

And that is why any opinion of Captain Slow is worth nothing...

The day a Panda is more fun than a Ferrari is the day the world stops spinning. I don't care how far I need to take my Ferrari to enjoy it, a Fiat Panda can never be more fun. That's just stupid trying to convince the world of its intelligence. Another place to see this in action is whenever anyone watches the Joe Biden Show each day.

[Hairy]

11 hours ago, Nick said:

Hi martinza

Thanks for the feedback. I meant to get back to sooner but the answer is long. 

It's a valid question and one I agonised over when deciding all the Classifieds categories and facets (it was a massive task, the spreadsheet is mind-numbing). In the end, I decided not to have "Riding Style" filter for Hardtail.

There are two sides that need to be considered in any Classifieds category decision: 1) creating the advert, and 2) browsing/filtering for it.

Filtering your search is benefitted by having more filters but creating your advert only gets more complex as you increase the requirements. We try to strike a balance here. And in this case, I decided to leave out "Riding Style" filter for Hardtails to simplify the advert listing process.

The Bike Hub Classifieds has a wide range of sellers with massively differing levels of knowledge. It has to cater for complete newbies up to the most knowledgeable in the country all in one system. Unlike an eCommerce store or brand website, there isn't an employee creating every listing with expert knowledge (even then online stores still get it wrong). We don't know who might be making the advert. People get confused, they get it wrong, or they simple don't know things. Not everyone shares the same level of interested in the technical side of cycling.

So we try to design an advert creation form that is easy to complete (spoiler: there's going to big design change to the ad creation form in the next week or two that I hope everyone will appreciate - I'm looking forward to to the feedback on that once it's live). But this also means that sometimes there isn't all the information that the searcher might like. We always prefer to have the bike listed than not being listed. The thinking is that you can always enquire further if you're interested which is better than never having a chance to see it at all. It can be intimidating not knowing the answers to questions.

Anyway, this was my thinking when deciding to not filter "Riding Style" in the Hardtail category:

1. The Hardtail category has a high proportion of newbies/low end bikes, so I'd like the advert creation form to have fewer questions to avoid them getting overwhelmed and abandoning. We want Bike Hub to be friendly to newcomers rather than scaring them.
2. Following on point 1, less knowledgeable riders don't know the distinction between and XC hardtail and Trail/Enduro Hardatil. Don't believe me? Go look at all the Anthems and Epics listed as Trail/Enduro bikes in the Dual Sus category here.
3. With reference to point 2, it's more than likely that the filter will get flooded with bikes that don't fit the description and end up having limited use.
4. While trail hardtails are hugely awesome, they are not all that common. So leaving out a potentially confusing field for a low volume item is a justifiable omission. 

Obviously, "Riding Style" is not the only consideration, there are many other facets that are considered for inclusion or omission from each category and sub-category. This is just the narrow reasoning for this case.

The reality is that with a public created content, there is always going to be some inaccuracies and less than ideal filters. Especially for the more niche and knowledgeable searchers.

We're hoping that with some thoughtful design and feedback from the community (like this thread), we can make it as easy to use and accurate as possible for all users in the future.

Hi Nick

 

Do you think that many riders who show a bike like the Anthem under "Enduro" do not understand what the category is. Might they assume the Enduro is short for Endurance and therefore marathon....and the marathon is on trails ... so Trail/Enduro is then used.

If my above assumption is the case, could trail also not be taking to XC/Marathon/Trail and then shown Enduro/All-Mountain?

[Hairy]

2 minutes ago, Robbie Stewart said:

And that is why any opinion of Captain Slow is worth nothing...

The day a Panda is more fun than a Ferrari is the day the world stops spinning. I don't care how far I need to take my Ferrari to enjoy it, a Fiat Panda can never be more fun. That's just stupid trying to convince the world of its intelligence. Another place to see this in action is whenever anyone watches the Joe Biden Show each day.

1. You clearly have not ridden a decent trail/AM/Enduro hardtail

2. I have ridden a Panda, and I liked it. I have also ridden a Maserati, and I liked it.

3. A reference to the "Joe Biden Show", now you barking up the wrong tree and it would be better if you dropped these analogies 

[Nick]

27 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Hi Nick

 

Do you think that many riders who show a bike like the Anthem under "Enduro" do not understand what the category is. Might they assume the Enduro is short for Endurance and therefore marathon....and the marathon is on trails ... so Trail/Enduro is then used.

If my above assumption is the case, could trail also not be taking to XC/Marathon/Trail and then shown Enduro/All-Mountain?

Yes, that is definitely causing confusion in some cases and something to consider. Although obvious to us, I think enduro is an unknown term to many mountain bikers in SA.

The way our market currently is, in terms of numbers of bikes, the Classifieds is best broken down into XC bikes and then everything else. It is changing slowly but not yet at the point where breaking it down further is necessary. Bike classification unfortunately isn't a precise science.

There is also a lot we can still do in the way of helper text/ prompts to educate advertisers as they go through advert creation process. There's currently no explanation what difference between these categories is when you placing an advert. Including this will hopefully improve the quality of the ads.

 

[Hairy]

11 minutes ago, Nick said:

Yes, that is definitely causing confusion in some cases and something to consider. Although obvious to us, I think enduro is an unknown term to many mountain bikers in SA.

The way our market currently is, in terms of numbers of bikes, the Classifieds is best broken down into XC bikes and then everything else. It is changing slowly but not yet at the point where breaking it down further is necessary. Bike classification unfortunately isn't a precise science.

There is also a lot we can still do in the way of helper text/ prompts to educate advertisers as they go through advert creation process. There's currently no explanation what difference between these categories is when you placing an advert. Including this will hopefully improve the quality of the ads.

 

Look on the bright side, at least you have a SS section

[Nick]

7 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Look on the bright side, at least you have a SS section

Haha. Yeah! Can't leave that vital category out ????

Another tricky one was road bikes. Aero vs climbing vs endurance vs who knows?. People are not going to get that right. In the end, just decided to lump them all together.

[DieselnDust]

44 minutes ago, Hairy said:

Hi Nick

 

Do you think that many riders who show a bike like the Anthem under "Enduro" do not understand what the category is. Might they assume the Enduro is short for Endurance and therefore marathon....and the marathon is on trails ... so Trail/Enduro is then used.

If my above assumption is the case, could trail also not be taking to XC/Marathon/Trail and then shown Enduro/All-Mountain?

maybe they used the Anthem for #Enduro and therefore the bike should be avoided or priced in consideration of the abuse?

Sort of like buying a 2nd hand bike with a Cape Epic race sticker still attached. You know its only worth 10% of new value.

we shouldn't discourage honesty.... #justsaying

[Robbie Stewart]

41 minutes ago, Hairy said:

1. You clearly have not ridden a decent trail/AM/Enduro hardtail

2. I have ridden a Panda, and I liked it. I have also ridden a Maserati, and I liked it.

3. A reference to the "Joe Biden Show", now you barking up the wrong tree and it would be better if you dropped these analogies 

1. I am not disagreeing w.r.t. a proper HT for Trail / Enduro / AM - I would much rather ride one than the full-sus I have now, but since none were available at time of purchase, alas.

2. I'm not saying a Panda is not fun. But MORE fun than a Ferrari? I'm unconvinced.

3. Whatever. I am not starting a new topic / fight or barking at any trees. I usually lift my leg, do my business, and move on.

[DieselnDust]

13 minutes ago, Robbie Stewart said:

1. I am not disagreeing w.r.t. a proper HT for Trail / Enduro / AM - I would much rather ride one than the full-sus I have now, but since none were available at time of purchase, alas.

2. I'm not saying a Panda is not fun. But MORE fun than a Ferrari? I'm unconvinced.

3. Whatever. I am not starting a new topic / fight or barking at any trees. I usually lift my leg, do my business, and move on.

A Panda is a whole load of fun when driven within the context of UK road law. The Ferrari needs specific conditions to let it shine and its not a lot of fun in city traffic. You need to watch that episode of TG and take May's comments in context.

BTW he owns a Ferrari (had a few actually) and knows how to have fun with it on a track. He's quite an accomplished driver despite the "Captain Slow" TG moniker

[Hairy]

And you can go 4 x 4 in a panda 

 

[MTBRIDER1234]

The best way to describe these trail/am hardtails is if you know you know. You would need to ride one to see why some of us love them so much.

[Jewbacca]

I really wanted one of those 4x4 Pandas.... My wife said it would be a complete waste of petrol as we would then have to take 2 cars everywhere because she would not be seen in anything so hideous.

Trail HT's.... I had a few... A Mercer, a NINER ROS9, a Ragley BigWig.... Had a blast on all of them, raced a few Ezelenduro's, some other stuff both geared and SS. They are certainly a whole whack of fun.

I look back and remember them fondly like taking drugs at a Prodigy concert. My mind romantically remembers the fun times, the clean runs, the feeling of radness.... It has forgotten the hideous chemical drug come down and 6 day hongover, the ouchie spills, the hard work, the feeling of sitting over your fork while the back wheel hops around like a jackhammer piloted by a guy on drugs at a prodigy concert..... 

I would like another one

Edited August 31, 2021 by Jewbacca

[DieselnDust]

A trail hard tail is like owning a lotus 7

its seat of the pants fun and when you get it wrong there’s a hole in the back of said pants 

[Hairy]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

A trail hard tail is like owning a lotus 7

its seat of the pants fun and when you get it wrong there’s a hole in the back of said pants 

Add a "Enduro" HT into the mix then