Persistent shoulders/neck pain after bike fit

[Dusty]

17 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Okay so had a bike fit done by Richard Baxter on wednesday at Dunkeld. I was a bit worried as i am riding CTCT this weekend so wasn't sure but WTH if it fixes shoulder and back pain then its worth it and he came highly recommended off this string.

So far the changes have been great. 

Seat height wasn't an issue but saddle width and softness was and i was too far forward, also cleat location and Q Factor which i will discuss below. So just FYI being on the downhill slope to 58, 105 kgs (should be about 90) and have been riding for about 25 years so have some Kms under my belt. However the bars were too narrow (41 cm bars shipped on a large Roubaix - they were Specialized standard bars - not sure why they used such narrow bars as standard). Tick - new wider bars. Stem up a bit and aligned with Saddle height. Softer and wider saddle. tick. Pressure removed from seat area and then also off hands by raising bars.

The big change was where i had always struggled and found no answers. So i have always had hassles with getting wide enough Q factor for my stance. Richard looked at it and added 20mm spacers on to my pedal axles. this was radical compared to the 2 mm spacers i had in there. I also showed him how on the PCO measurements on the Garmin software i pedal 25 mm off the outside of the pedals and also have a problem with shoes etc (always have).  So 20 mm was huge - i didnt even know if you could do it or should but i have for example got extra axle length Shimano pedals but when i went to the Garmin Vector pedals i couldnt get so was using small spacers.

So feedback after 3 x rides (2 x indoor and about 50 km yesterday ) has been interesting. Definitely my back and shoulders are much less painful as i am much less hunched over so that seems to have fixed the primary problem. However i am also pedalling down directly and even though the PCO is still high i am able to correct it much better. Next step would be a set of wide platform Lake road shoes but i am not changing that prior to the race on Sunday.

The crazy thing is now i feel like i can put more power down and therefore it seems like my HR is lower but the most bizarre thing on my training data is that my VO2 max has shot up, coincidentally since July when i had my first vaccine. By a lot. Since mid July from 42 to 48 yesterday and it went from 45 to 48 yesterday and has been consistently increasing. I don't know if its related i.e. i am more efficient in the pedal stroke so HR is lower but i would be interested in the observations of others. My only major change hasnt really been an increase in training (up a little) but why would your VO2 max go up by 20% and then after the vaccine. Given its the highest its been in 10 years i cant really attribute it to much and i cant see what else i changed. Had a vaccine and got a setup. Something is different. So HR at a given power is lower. I suppose i need to do an FTP test to prove it but Gramin told me about a month ago when i started to ramp up training that my FTP was down about 10 watts from 230 to 220.

Would be keen to hear theories.

But overall much happier, this was a great outcome and i am glad i questioned you guys as i assumed my discomfort was par for the course related to become and old fart and not having enough core strength and too heavy so just live with it. 

Notch one up to the hub gurus.

Oh and i posted many times on Q factor and no one replied so i thought i was unique but it turns out that its a pretty common problem and that pedal extensions should be used a lot more. I used to crush the sides of my feet after a long race so badly i often couldnt walk for days.

Richard is really good. He put pedal extensions on my wife's bike and it has revolutionised her cycling.

[DieselnDust]

Q-factor is important. Narrower is not necessarily better. Bikes and the components fitted are designed around peeps with a BMI of 21 to 22. That doesn;t suit people with a BMI in >28 range....

[Paul Ruinaard]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Q-factor is important. Narrower is not necessarily better. Bikes and the components fitted are designed around peeps with a BMI of 21 to 22. That doesn;t suit people with a BMI in >28 range....

Agreed. I just dont know how the dutch do it - they aren't the smallest folks in the world.....

[Eldron]

2 hours ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Okay so had a bike fit done by Richard Baxter on wednesday at Dunkeld. I was a bit worried as i am riding CTCT this weekend so wasn't sure but WTH if it fixes shoulder and back pain then its worth it and he came highly recommended off this string.

So far the changes have been great. 

Seat height wasn't an issue but saddle width and softness was and i was too far forward, also cleat location and Q Factor which i will discuss below. So just FYI being on the downhill slope to 58, 105 kgs (should be about 90) and have been riding for about 25 years so have some Kms under my belt. However the bars were too narrow (41 cm bars shipped on a large Roubaix - they were Specialized standard bars - not sure why they used such narrow bars as standard). Tick - new wider bars. Stem up a bit and aligned with Saddle height. Softer and wider saddle. tick. Pressure removed from seat area and then also off hands by raising bars.

The big change was where i had always struggled and found no answers. So i have always had hassles with getting wide enough Q factor for my stance. Richard looked at it and added 20mm spacers on to my pedal axles. this was radical compared to the 2 mm spacers i had in there. I also showed him how on the PCO measurements on the Garmin software i pedal 25 mm off the outside of the pedals and also have a problem with shoes etc (always have).  So 20 mm was huge - i didnt even know if you could do it or should but i have for example got extra axle length Shimano pedals but when i went to the Garmin Vector pedals i couldnt get so was using small spacers.

So feedback after 3 x rides (2 x indoor and about 50 km yesterday ) has been interesting. Definitely my back and shoulders are much less painful as i am much less hunched over so that seems to have fixed the primary problem. However i am also pedalling down directly and even though the PCO is still high i am able to correct it much better. Next step would be a set of wide platform Lake road shoes but i am not changing that prior to the race on Sunday.

The crazy thing is now i feel like i can put more power down and therefore it seems like my HR is lower but the most bizarre thing on my training data is that my VO2 max has shot up, coincidentally since July when i had my first vaccine. By a lot. Since mid July from 42 to 48 yesterday and it went from 45 to 48 yesterday and has been consistently increasing. I don't know if its related i.e. i am more efficient in the pedal stroke so HR is lower but i would be interested in the observations of others. My only major change hasnt really been an increase in training (up a little) but why would your VO2 max go up by 20% and then after the vaccine. Given its the highest its been in 10 years i cant really attribute it to much and i cant see what else i changed. Had a vaccine and got a setup. Something is different. So HR at a given power is lower. I suppose i need to do an FTP test to prove it but Gramin told me about a month ago when i started to ramp up training that my FTP was down about 10 watts from 230 to 220.

Would be keen to hear theories.

But overall much happier, this was a great outcome and i am glad i questioned you guys as i assumed my discomfort was par for the course related to become and old fart and not having enough core strength and too heavy so just live with it. 

Notch one up to the hub gurus.

Oh and i posted many times on Q factor and no one replied so i thought i was unique but it turns out that its a pretty common problem and that pedal extensions should be used a lot more. I used to crush the sides of my feet after a long race so badly i often couldnt walk for days.

The increased efficiency and power delivery is pretty common for a bike fit - I'd guess 60% of my customers report improved efficiency/lower heart rates/improved FTP (whatever you want to call it). It is one of the reasons I don't understand why everyone isn't at my door trying to get a bike fit ????That new carbon bar will cost you way more and improve your cycling way less!

Rant over.

Q factor is an interesting one - I only really change Q factor using extenders on my customers with really wide pelvic structures. Any ideas what your width is?

The reason I ask is that ankle and leg structure can affect stance not just pelvic width.

I use Shimano/Bikefitting.com's Pedal Analysis hardware and software to measure stance (see pic attached). It uses 2 x 3D power meters in a special pedalling rig. It is (in my opinion) the industry standard for stance measurement. I have had success with both cleat placement/wedging and extenders/spacing to solve stance issues.

Either way I'm really pleased you're happy now. Preach the gospel to other and get everyone happier and faster on their bikes ????

 

 

 

 

[Eldron]

1 hour ago, DieselnDust said:

Q-factor is important. Narrower is not necessarily better. Bikes and the components fitted are designed around peeps with a BMI of 21 to 22. That doesn;t suit people with a BMI in >28 range....

Why would you use BMI? It has only a vague relationship with pelvic width. Skeletal pelvic width is the correct measurement for Q factor recommendation.

[Eldron]

7 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Agreed. I just dont know how the dutch do it - they aren't the smallest folks in the world.....

Height and pelvic width is not a fixed relationship. Generally yes but not specifically. Each pelvis is unique ????

[Paul Ruinaard]

12 minutes ago, Eldron said:

The increased efficiency and power delivery is pretty common for a bike fit - I'd guess 60% of my customers report improved efficiency/lower heart rates/improved FTP (whatever you want to call it). It is one of the reasons I don't understand why everyone isn't at my door trying to get a bike fit ????That new carbon bar will cost you way more and improve your cycling way less!

Rant over.

Q factor is an interesting one - I only really change Q factor using extenders on my customers with really wide pelvic structures. Any ideas what your width is?

The reason I ask is that ankle and leg structure can affect stance not just pelvic width.

I use Shimano/Bikefitting.com's Pedal Analysis hardware and software to measure stance (see pic attached). It uses 2 x 3D power meters in a special pedalling rig. It is (in my opinion) the industry standard for stance measurement. I have had success with both cleat placement/wedging and extenders/spacing to solve stance issues.

Either way I'm really pleased you're happy now. Preach the gospel to other and get everyone happier and faster on their bikes ????

 

 

 

 

Very interesting. 

TBH Richard said similair which was surprising as i was not aware that its that material.  I was looking at the Garmin PCO stats as well. They are improved but still i am 17mm off of centre so like i said next step is maybe a wider shoe like a Lake TBH which has a wider bottom.

Who runs the Shimano setup software locally? Maybe i need to go and see them.

Historically I have ridden races where once i have finished i have had such pain in the outside of my feet that i cant walk the next day so i KNOW i push off the side.  Secondly i am built like a brick outhouse and should be in the front row of most scrums so why i decided to get in to cycling i have no idea but thats just part of the history. The thing is that i have always had hassles with walking on the edges of my shoes - as a lighty they corrected my step as i was pigeon toed so they built up the inside of my shoes. Seems like they over corrected.

So the new setup will take time to bed in but i definitely feel that the pedals are much more under my feet.

What do you think of the Garmin data that comes from the Vector 3's ? Thats what i am basing a lot of this on.

[Paul Ruinaard]

34 minutes ago, Eldron said:

The increased efficiency and power delivery is pretty common for a bike fit - I'd guess 60% of my customers report improved efficiency/lower heart rates/improved FTP (whatever you want to call it). It is one of the reasons I don't understand why everyone isn't at my door trying to get a bike fit ????That new carbon bar will cost you way more and improve your cycling way less!

Rant over.

Q factor is an interesting one - I only really change Q factor using extenders on my customers with really wide pelvic structures. Any ideas what your width is?

The reason I ask is that ankle and leg structure can affect stance not just pelvic width.

I use Shimano/Bikefitting.com's Pedal Analysis hardware and software to measure stance (see pic attached). It uses 2 x 3D power meters in a special pedalling rig. It is (in my opinion) the industry standard for stance measurement. I have had success with both cleat placement/wedging and extenders/spacing to solve stance issues.

Either way I'm really pleased you're happy now. Preach the gospel to other and get everyone happier and faster on their bikes ????

 

 

 

 

how or where do i measure pelvic width BTW?

 

[Eldron]

6 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

Very interesting. 

TBH Richard said similair which was surprising as i was not aware that its that material.  I was looking at the Garmin PCO stats as well. They are improved but still i am 17mm off of centre so like i said next step is maybe a wider shoe like a Lake TBH which has a wider bottom.

Who runs the Shimano setup software locally? Maybe i need to go and see them.

Historically I have ridden races where once i have finished i have had such pain in the outside of my feet that i cant walk the next day so i KNOW i push off the side.  Secondly i am built like a brick outhouse and should be in the front row of most scrums so why i decided to get in to cycling i have no idea but thats just part of the history. The thing is that i have always had hassles with walking on the edges of my shoes - as a lighty they corrected my step as i was pigeon toed so they built up the inside of my shoes. Seems like they over corrected.

So the new setup will take time to bed in but i definitely feel that the pedals are much more under my feet.

What do you think of the Garmin data that comes from the Vector 3's ? Thats what i am basing a lot of this on.

I don't know of anyone in SA using the rig - mostly because I don't think it would make financial sense there. The hardware is eye wateringly expensive and bike fitting in SA is valued pretty poorly (plus earning Rands when you've bought a rig in Euros doesn't help!).

I have asked the guys at Coolheat....

The Garmin data is good - certainly good enough to identify a problem. It might be worth trying to few width extenders to get the right fit as I don't think the Garmin data is good enough to get it mm perfect.

Give the fitting a few more rides before final judgement - t takes some time for the muscles to adjust.

[Eldron]

2 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

how or where do i measure pelvic width BTW?

 

You use a pelvis width measuring system of course ???? 

The manual version uses a gel pad that you sit on then you see how wide the imprint is and the digital version uses pressure mapping.

I'd guess the manual version is available somewhere in SA. Lemme check.

[Paul Ruinaard]

And BTW thanks for all the help. Eyes have been opened.

[Eldron]

3 minutes ago, Paul Ruinaard said:

And BTW thanks for all the help. Eyes have been opened.

No worries. I love my job and could happily talk about it all day (and I do mostly!).

[MongooseMan]

Ok, this thread has inspired me. 

Been having very similar issues (sore point between the shoulders after about an hour on the bike), and have tried all manner of saddle up/down/front/back to solve with no success. Time for a professional...

Booked an appointment with Irma for next week, so now I just have to grimace through CTCT and will hopefully be all sorted by Boland 2 weeks later ????

[ChrisF]

1 hour ago, MongooseMan said:

Ok, this thread has inspired me. 

Been having very similar issues (sore point between the shoulders after about an hour on the bike), and have tried all manner of saddle up/down/front/back to solve with no success. Time for a professional...

Booked an appointment with Irma for next week, so now I just have to grimace through CTCT and will hopefully be all sorted by Boland 2 weeks later ????

Do you have more than one bike ?

 

Irma charges for the first bike fit, and for a minimal fee also sets up your second bike.   This must be arranged beforehand, purely to book out enough time.

 

 

Send my regards to Irma.  When I saw her the first time I could barely survive 60 minutes on the bike, 90 minutes had me in pain.  September I did solid 5 hour ride.  Apart from tender sit-bones I was fine the next day, actually did another decent ride 48 hours later.

Edited October 4, 2021 by ChrisF

[MongooseMan]

3 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Do you have more than one bike ?

 

Irma charges for the first bike fit, and for a minimal fee also sets up your second bike.   This must be arranged beforehand, purely to book out enough time.

 

 

Send my regards to Irma.  When I saw her the first time I could barely survive 60 minutes on the bike, 90 minutes had me in pain.  September I did solid 5 hour ride.  Apart from tender sit-bones I was fine the next day, actually did another decent ride 48 hours later.

Just the one bike.

Yeah, everything I've read suggests that a bike fit just makes sense as an investment.

 

Logistics question: How does it work if she suggests you need a new saddle/stem/bars/etc. Do you then go off to the shop and buy it, or does she have stock?

Just not sure what to expect.

[ChrisF]

3 minutes ago, MongooseMan said:

Just the one bike.

Yeah, everything I've read suggests that a bike fit just makes sense as an investment.

 

Logistics question: How does it work if she suggests you need a new saddle/stem/bars/etc. Do you then go off to the shop and buy it, or does she have stock?

Just not sure what to expect.

 

She will measure your sit-bone width, and then check the saddle .... best case you keep that saddle.  Worst case ... she opens a drawer with LOTS of saddles.

 

Initially I was fine, but once I got past 2 hour rides the saddle just was not "lekka" .... that is when she dug into that drawer.  Talk about a proper double blind test !!!  I did not know what brand of saddle she was fitting ... sit, ride on the station, uhm haa ... try the next one .... 4th one just "felt right" !!!  Turns out my bottom likes the Ryder saddle.