If Flückiger’s positive test is confirmed. Will Nino Schurter then have won 34 World Cups?

[J Wakefield]

12 hours ago, tinmug said:

The B sample hasn't been tested (apparently). Why not if he claims angel-like innocence?

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/mathias-flueckiger-claims-innocence-in-doping-case-sample-should-have-been-reported-atypical-not-positive.html 

 

 

Reading that, he is going to use B sample as a last option possibly and exhaust alternative options to clear his name before requesting B sample. Which he has all right to do. 

[Scary Rider]

On 9/6/2022 at 2:34 PM, Shebeen said:

hang on, what's Zeronol? I'm unfamiliar with it as it's not one of the substances listed in Koos' Verslaaf so I had to do some shallow digging 

 

 

it's just moo cow beef hormones. contador's lawyer will do better this time and get him off.

Virbac Animal Health has a product called Zeramec, which also contains ivermectin. The thinking behind it is to make your animals grow better whilst also klapping internal and external parasites. If used by a human I can only imagine getting a boost and dodging Covid?🤔🤨

[DieselnDust]

9 hours ago, milky4130 said:

the comments section on that pinkbike article is just next level 🤣

This article talks about the levels in his blood being way below the threshold for the substance. This is either PR speak or is there something else going on here. 
je tested negative a few days prior and then again negative a few days after the Swiss XCO champs. So two false negatives, a false positive or is there something else going on here?

[Danger Dassie]

2 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

This article talks about the levels in his blood being way below the threshold for the substance. This is either PR speak or is there something else going on here. 
je tested negative a few days prior and then again negative a few days after the Swiss XCO champs. So two false negatives, a false positive or is there something else going on here?

Not really PR speak if these are the numbers and prescribed process. by WADA
The article actually answers that question in that the test was seemingly carried out on different equipment. 

As JW has pointed out, there is a process to be followed, which includes uncovering new information as it arises.

[dave303e]

3 hours ago, J Wakefield said:

Correct and if they are specifically looking for a certain substance then it may take little longer. B sample is tested yes, but if that is also positive, then there is a legal process and so forth. 

The process yes takes time, more so that the general public like - also here clearly - but the processes are this:

Imagine your cycling favourite returns a positive, would you not want a fair and legal process to protect themselves best as possible incase that is contamination or similar events for example?

Or better yet, put yourself in the said athletes shoes, how would you want the process to happen to be air against yourself? 

Much like being caught stealing at work....Simply be fired cause the pencils were in your desk drawer?

 

I agree with that. But the slow turnaround guarantees some or other conflict going forward.

If he gets the decision reversed and is cleared. He has already missed rounds of the season and possibly a 3rd this weekend. Imagine being in the best form of your career and missing out on the chance to race. Now it is easy to make an athlete pay back prize money. But if an athlete is missing races on a false positive, or a suspension instead of a warning. That athlete is out the running for prizes and has no leg to stand on to claim them after the fact.

If he doesn't get the decision reversed or cleared- There are 3 rounds where he raced, but shouldn't have been racing. And they need to then get a court to order him to pay back prizes, then the new winners are announced and their sponsors don't get the true coverage.

Either way the slow turnaround will affect the athlete or other athletes. 

In your example of stealing at work- doping is a lot more clear cut- is the substance in the blood, is the amount over the limit? If yes then give them the chance to test the B sample. There is no 'he said she said' that you need to go back and forth figuring out. There is a legal amount(often 0) but if it is over that then offer the B sample.

The slow turnaround means- you find the pencils in the desk, because it takes so long to figure out you have to do a performance and salary review while investigating and then you need to correct for errors in the performance and salary review once you have decided if the theft was valid.

I get the procedures are there and they protect, but they also cause massive loss to one or more parties in the mean time and cost everyone including UCI more in the long run...

[Shebeen]

12 hours ago, milky4130 said:

the comments section on that pinkbike article is just next level 🤣

indeed, sounds like this is not straightforward at all!

[DieselnDust]

3 minutes ago, Shebeen said:

indeed, sounds like this is not straightforward at all!

Oooooh my, that last comment sends the compass back to the turn of the century…..

Lance lance is that you

[J Wakefield]

2 hours ago, dave303e said:

I agree with that. But the slow turnaround guarantees some or other conflict going forward.

If he gets the decision reversed and is cleared. He has already missed rounds of the season and possibly a 3rd this weekend. Imagine being in the best form of your career and missing out on the chance to race. Now it is easy to make an athlete pay back prize money. But if an athlete is missing races on a false positive, or a suspension instead of a warning. That athlete is out the running for prizes and has no leg to stand on to claim them after the fact.

If he doesn't get the decision reversed or cleared- There are 3 rounds where he raced, but shouldn't have been racing. And they need to then get a court to order him to pay back prizes, then the new winners are announced and their sponsors don't get the true coverage.

Either way the slow turnaround will affect the athlete or other athletes. 

In your example of stealing at work- doping is a lot more clear cut- is the substance in the blood, is the amount over the limit? If yes then give them the chance to test the B sample. There is no 'he said she said' that you need to go back and forth figuring out. There is a legal amount(often 0) but if it is over that then offer the B sample.

The slow turnaround means- you find the pencils in the desk, because it takes so long to figure out you have to do a performance and salary review while investigating and then you need to correct for errors in the performance and salary review once you have decided if the theft was valid.

I get the procedures are there and they protect, but they also cause massive loss to one or more parties in the mean time and cost everyone including UCI more in the long run...

Work: Management finds the stolen pencils in your desk 
Testing: WADA finds a banned substance in your system

Work: Hearing / called into the office to explain
Testing: Same deal you present the case 

Work: Provide evidence you did not steal
Testing: Provide B sample or contaminated product 

Work: We only found some pencils that were stolen not all of them
Testing: Below threshold value of said product 

Does that mean you did or did not have wrong doing.

 

[J Wakefield]

2 hours ago, Danger Dassie said:

Not really PR speak if these are the numbers and prescribed process. by WADA
The article actually answers that question in that the test was seemingly carried out on different equipment. 

As JW has pointed out, there is a process to be followed, which includes uncovering new information as it arises.

Additionally remember IF this is a contamination issue, he will need to find where the contamination came from by testing for example nutritional products he has been using, this alone takes time. He would also do this way before requesting a B sample or admitting guilt. 

If for example this is a blood passport issue or similar, the athlete has all right to have a expert of their choice in that field look at the results and provide info. this also takes time.

So there are a few reasons why these are not open and shut cases.

[Danger Dassie]

2 hours ago, DieselnDust said:

Oooooh my, that last comment sends the compass back to the turn of the century…..

Lance lance is that you

Proving once again what bottom scraping cesspool the comments sections normally are.

How does a private individual gain "ownership" in any form in a state/university laboratory accredited by WADA. 

[dave303e]

34 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Work: Management finds the stolen pencils in your desk 
Testing: WADA finds a banned substance in your system

Work: Hearing / called into the office to explain
Testing: Same deal you present the case 

Work: Provide evidence you did not steal
Testing: Provide B sample or contaminated product 

Work: We only found some pencils that were stolen not all of them
Testing: Below threshold value of said product 

Does that mean you did or did not have wrong doing.

 

I think we are not getting each others real points- my issue is the timing, not the process.

I am happy with the process, glad protocols and discussions are had and it is fair. To me- it just needs to match the pace of a season.

In the work environment if there were performance reviews, decisions of promotions and raises due within a week of the incident. They could delay the decisions on performance reviews/ promotions/ raises until the matter is resolved. Then once resolved they can make the correct decision going forward and not have to correct for those decisions at a later stage.

In sports terms- They cannot pause the racing season until the matter is resolved. So either the athlete is competing when they shouldn't, or not competing when they should- and there is no way to correct for the latter. By having so many important events in short succession they need to have the equivalent turnaround on the doping control.

Formula one needs to be able to test for every vehicle regulation on a week by week basis and make decisions to ban illegal cars in an instant. Hamilton's wing failed a test by 0,2mm on Friday night and he was dropped to the back of the grid for the start of the sprint on Saturday. They have had to optimize their mechanisms and build a process to allow for that fast reaction and decision. Wada needs to do the same. Because unlike an office pencil theft- they cannot delay the next event while they resolve the issue so they need to react before the next event.

[DieselnDust]

but in the employees defense,

• the pencils were there to be used, the employee merely stocked up on a few more than immediately needed because the consumption pf pencils is high in the office. maybe someone else is stealing then pencils? Employee needs to provide evidence of this.
• overstocking ones desk of such low value pencils is not considered a crime since this is a consumable. Employee could claim a witch hunt.
• someone else put the pencils in the employees desk, again the employee would need to provide some sort of evidence and this take time.

The number of scenarios is not small and each avenue needs to be investigated to a level of reasonableness.

However I think some are asking if it is fair for the employee to be suspended without pay and benefits when the act appears to be a misdemeanor. What is being missed is that there is no scale of crime here, its a either or situation and while one side is preparing a defense the other is checking to ensure that staplers and guilotines also aren't being hidden away somewhere 

[DieselnDust]

6 minutes ago, Danger Dassie said:

Proving once again what bottom scraping cesspool the comments sections normally are.

How does a private individual gain "ownership" in any form in a state/university laboratory accredited by WADA. 

eeeeerrrr welll..... "ownership is could be a large donation to ensure the good work carries on (while looking the other way)

PinkBike comments section is lower than a cesspool. 

[Danger Dassie]

43 minutes ago, J Wakefield said:

Additionally remember IF this is a contamination issue, he will need to find where the contamination came from by testing for example nutritional products he has been using, this alone takes time. He would also do this way before requesting a B sample or admitting guilt. 

If for example this is a blood passport issue or similar, the athlete has all right to have a expert of their choice in that field look at the results and provide info. this also takes time.

So there are a few reasons why these are not open and shut cases.

True, the process on paper is pretty solid. Unfortunately budget limitations are very real, both for the majority of athletes and anti doping/federations.  I remember a stat outlining something like a single large ad campaign budget for a major sportswear brand being bigger than WADA's entire annual budget. 

Wrt to MF's case and appeal it seems to be heading in the direction of a possible contamination claim. https://switzerlandtimes.ch/sport/consumption-of-contaminated-meat/ 

[Danger Dassie]

6 minutes ago, dave303e said:

I think we are not getting each others real points- my issue is the timing, not the process.

I am happy with the process, glad protocols and discussions are had and it is fair. To me- it just needs to match the pace of a season.

In the work environment if there were performance reviews, decisions of promotions and raises due within a week of the incident. They could delay the decisions on performance reviews/ promotions/ raises until the matter is resolved. Then once resolved they can make the correct decision going forward and not have to correct for those decisions at a later stage.

In sports terms- They cannot pause the racing season until the matter is resolved. So either the athlete is competing when they shouldn't, or not competing when they should- and there is no way to correct for the latter. By having so many important events in short succession they need to have the equivalent turnaround on the doping control.

Formula one needs to be able to test for every vehicle regulation on a week by week basis and make decisions to ban illegal cars in an instant. Hamilton's wing failed a test by 0,2mm on Friday night and he was dropped to the back of the grid for the start of the sprint on Saturday. They have had to optimize their mechanisms and build a process to allow for that fast reaction and decision. Wada needs to do the same. Because unlike an office pencil theft- they cannot delay the next event while they resolve the issue so they need to react before the next event.

Budget constraints match pace. And some lab protocols can't be fast tracked, not matter how much money is thrown at it. 
This also isn't USADA perse, it's the Swiss antidoping. Like our SAIDS. 
 

[Danger Dassie]

WADA accredited testing labs, ABP labs, labs standards requirements, ABP standards and so forth. https://www.wada-ama.org/en/anti-doping-partners/laboratories

FYI the accredited lab in Lausanne is a University Hospital. 

South Africa's is in Bloem.