Seeding - How it works with some examples

[mikkelz]

I guess what's interesting with DC, is that it's a team event. So then should it actually count towards your individual seeding? 🤔

[DieselnDust]

1 hour ago, MongooseMan said:

From personal experience, the "easiest" way to move up is join a strong DC team. DC gets a big beta (1.42 last year), and you get to ride with people stronger than you.

A 5:44 last year (yes, I know it's a good time, but it's an hour slower than the winners) got me a 16.13 index, which is a massive headstart (essentially B group, or % in 99er) coming into the new year's races.

and therein lies my situation.

Crashed out of one tonner at 3km into the race thanks to pothole filler that was bigger than a XCo course jump.

DC was a total disaster with teammates pitching up with zero training and then expecting everyone to wait for them, a 9hr DC gets no favours in the seeding office

[DieselnDust]

6 minutes ago, mikkelz said:

I guess what's interesting with DC, is that it's a team event. So then should it actually count towards your individual seeding? 🤔

It didn't in the past which is why I always considered it a speknboon event and did it for fun 

[Pure Savage]

31 minutes ago, mikkelz said:

I guess what's interesting with DC, is that it's a team event. So then should it actually count towards your individual seeding? 🤔

It doesnt really..

[Pure Savage]

I think a good way to update the seeding to make everyone happy is as follows.

Do the same as before for everything, but then...

There is an adjustment made depending on how much further you finish ahead of the median time of your group. 

Example: You get the seeding for the A bunch finish vibes, but you finished 75 seconds ahead of the median time which was where all the wheel suckers sat all day. You then get a adjustment to your time trimming off 25% etc..

This way you are rewarded for finishing ahead of the "bunch", you may have to do adjust it for the lower groups a little, but should help move people up to $.

Only issue is, $ was not empty on the weekend, going to get crowded.

Someone else do the math, if its decent I am sure the Seeding admin following this thread from afar will use if it works.

 

 

[matthew de haast]

18 minutes ago, Pure Savage said:

I think a good way to update the seeding to make everyone happy is as follows.

Do the same as before for everything, but then...

There is an adjustment made depending on how much further you finish ahead of the median time of your group. 

Example: You get the seeding for the A bunch finish vibes, but you finished 75 seconds ahead of the median time which was where all the wheel suckers sat all day. You then get a adjustment to your time trimming off 25% etc..

This way you are rewarded for finishing ahead of the "bunch", you may have to do adjust it for the lower groups a little, but should help move people up to $.

Only issue is, $ was not empty on the weekend, going to get crowded.

Someone else do the math, if its decent I am sure the Seeding admin following this thread from afar will use if it works.

 

 

Maybe the solution for the A->$ is treating some people as potential promotions and then some of the $ as relegation. ie, Top 10% of A can jump to $ and the bottom 10% of $ get relegated to A.

The group doesn't just keep growing but allows for some movement between the two

Edited February 13, 2025 by matthew de haast

[bleedToWin]

We just need multiplayer elo. Road cycling is much more like chess than golf anyway!

[Pure Savage]

1 hour ago, matthew de haast said:

Maybe the solution for the A->$ is treating some people as potential promotions and then some of the $ as relegation. ie, Top 10% of A can jump to $ and the bottom 10% of $ get relegated to A.

The group doesn't just keep growing but allows for some movement between the two

My analogy of the group getting full was wrong, as unless everyone is on a 0 seeding, its always possible to select the top 150. What may happen is you may end up with a 0 seeding if beating A buy 10 minutes, which may knock a $ into A.

[MongooseMan]

An interview with the seeding "architect"  😁

 

[Jacques9874]

Can someone explain to me how the following would affect my seeding index:

I did the 99er on Saturday and started in E batch. I haven't done much racing recently so my current index doesn't reflect my form. I was on the front for most of the race, driving the pace of the bunch as best I could. We'd caught the entirety of D batch within 27km, merging to form one large group. It's obviously flat and fast so breaking away seems near impossible on that route.
In the end we did 02:28:23, going faster than everyone in D batch and equaling the fastest rider in C batch.

My question is this: If I did the same time from E batch as the fastest time in C batch, does my seeding index improve more than everyone in D and C or is everything purely related to my time vs the winner irrespective of where I started?

I hope this question makes sense.

[waveduke]

1 hour ago, Jacques9874 said:

Can someone explain to me how the following would affect my seeding index:

I did the 99er on Saturday and started in E batch. I haven't done much racing recently so my current index doesn't reflect my form. I was on the front for most of the race, driving the pace of the bunch as best I could. We'd caught the entirety of D batch within 27km, merging to form one large group. It's obviously flat and fast so breaking away seems near impossible on that route.
In the end we did 02:28:23, going faster than everyone in D batch and equaling the fastest rider in C batch.

My question is this: If I did the same time from E batch as the fastest time in C batch, does my seeding index improve more than everyone in D and C or is everything purely related to my time vs the winner irrespective of where I started?

I hope this question makes sense.

Just your time against the winning time - doesn't matter where you started.

[Skubarra]

1 hour ago, Jacques9874 said:

Can someone explain to me how the following would affect my seeding index:

I did the 99er on Saturday and started in E batch. I haven't done much racing recently so my current index doesn't reflect my form. I was on the front for most of the race, driving the pace of the bunch as best I could. We'd caught the entirety of D batch within 27km, merging to form one large group. It's obviously flat and fast so breaking away seems near impossible on that route.
In the end we did 02:28:23, going faster than everyone in D batch and equaling the fastest rider in C batch.

My question is this: If I did the same time from E batch as the fastest time in C batch, does my seeding index improve more than everyone in D and C or is everything purely related to my time vs the winner irrespective of where I started?

I hope this question makes sense.

if you did the same time from E compared to someone in C you will have the same seeding index from the race.

Don't get your hopes up too much for 99er though, because route is flat & many elites were not riding penalties will likely be applied. You will probably know in a weeks time when they do the seeding for Tour de PPA

[MongooseMan]

40 minutes ago, Skubarra said:

if you did the same time from E compared to someone in C you will have the same seeding index from the race.

Don't get your hopes up too much for 99er though, because route is flat & many elites were not riding penalties will likely be applied. You will probably know in a weeks time when they do the seeding for Tour de PPA

Yeah, I suspect we'll get an adjusted winning time and a low beta because of (a) great conditions and (b) far fewer elites because of nationals.

[DieselnDust]

yes yes yes but his seeding calc will deliver a better change than the groups his caught. That is the question.

Whether the change is meaningful or not is only relevant if Tour De PPA delivers less penalties or higher beta. Its also not a very hilly route just 10km longer

[MongooseMan]

99er seeding is out:
Beta of 0.88, which is low, but I've seen lower (it was 0.8 for the 2023 99er)

But adjusted winning time is where the difference comes:
Actual winner was 2h09, adjusted winning time is 1h59 😐

[Skubarra]

35 minutes ago, MongooseMan said:

99er seeding is out:
Beta of 0.88, which is low, but I've seen lower (it was 0.8 for the 2023 99er)

But adjusted winning time is where the difference comes:
Actual winner was 2h09, adjusted winning time is 1h59 😐

Cycle Tour last year the elites were about 20 minutes faster than the age cats

Saturday winners were only 6 minutes faster than the alphabet soup groups, so adjusted winner time looks ballpark reasonable I would say