What are you drinking when training / racing?

[Michael S]

2 minutes ago, Martin Albrecht said:

Classy comment there. 
 

Maybe if you guys spent some more quality saddle time “prodding along” in Zone 2, you would actually improve your overall performance significantly, and could afford to spend some time getting your all around nutrition sorted, along with training proper fat adaptions.

You do realise that upwards of 80% of your training should be happening in Zone 2 right?

Noted, will do coach.

[Gerlach]

Cytomax was my go to stuff when racing and it worked really good. For training, green tea was most of the time in my bottles and lemon juice. Lemon juice increases GLP-1 that helps with the glucose spike. Go check Jessie Inchauspe review on it.  

[Martin Albrecht]

14 minutes ago, Michael S said:

Noted, will do coach.

I’m no coach, just a layman with a keen interest. 
 

just remember, it’s all relative. For you or me, Zone 2 might be 160-180Watts, for someone like Pogacar or Beers, their zone could be starting at 320Watts.

[NicoSmit]

Training Oros and races Herbalife's CR7

[Michael S]

9 minutes ago, Martin Albrecht said:

I’m no coach, just a layman with a keen interest. 
 

just remember, it’s all relative. For you or me, Zone 2 might be 160-180Watts, for someone like Pogacar or Beers, their zone could be starting at 320Watts.

['Kaze Pete]

1 hour ago, JacquesJ said:

Where do you buy your malto and fructose in SA?

Local pharmacy. Might be able to get it in bulk from the likes of Dischem, but I stay 50km away from the nearest of those.

 

[Gnarly]

Training Ride: Water

Race (Long Time Ago): Half Coke Half Water in one bottle, other bottle water

Recover Drink: Beer and a Grappa 

 

[JB77]

Currently making my own gels. I always preferred the more liquid gels but they are expensive.
You can take almost any energy drink mix and mix it to a gel consistency while considering some other factors

The main thing you have to be mindful of is the sodium content because you don't want something that is going to have too much sodium.

Currently using Enduren for this purpose and mixing 50g of carbs into 100ml of water.
Then pouring that into a small gel flask. Can add caffeine as needed.

Edited February 25 by JB77

[Mamil]

1 hour ago, Martin Albrecht said:

I’m no coach, just a layman with a keen interest. 
 

just remember, it’s all relative. For you or me, Zone 2 might be 160-180Watts, for someone like Pogacar or Beers, their zone could be starting at 320Watts.

Are you saying that fat adaptation is dependent on training in glycogen depleted states or perhaps on minimal carbohydrate consumption in low intensity, long duration training?

If so, it seems to me from my youtube and lay person reading of open source research that is isn't necessarily true. It looks to me that the current consensus is that low intensity and duration are primary drivers of fat adaptation and that although in a training session, availability of carbs increases insulin levels and increases carbohydrate use, this doesn't impair the ability to draw on fat reserves. It appears that so long as there is some carb shortage, fat use develops as a function of time in the saddle at low intensity. 

I am also told by these sources that gut tolerance for high carb intake is necessary for race day performance and that this is trained by carb consumption on long rides. They are also saying that preserving glycogen levels in ultra events (that I complete at a very low intensity) is important and accomplished by consistent carbohydrate fueling.

My experience bears these interpretations out - low intensity (high zone 1, low zone 2 - for me that's 160 to 230 watts) rides done fueled are more sustainable and less fatiguing 

At a minimum though I think that all statements in complex subjects like nutrition are provisional and caveated by disclaimers. The certainty I perceive in your posts I think obscures the complexity. 

 

['Kaze Pete]

My ability to train harder, go longer improved dramatically with higher carb intake. Salts/electrolytes are important but not the limiter a lack of carbs during, or post ride is.

[Ncayi]

23 hours ago, fatcyclist said:

Been out of the scene for more than a decade. In CrossFit the WOD's were usually quick and explosive.. warm up, die for 20mins, cry a little on the floor, drive home, drink a protein shake and some creatine, rinse and repeat.

Specifically: How are the Biogen products? I can get a 15% discount on them through my old CrossFit coach (she's a sponsored athlete of theirs).

I use the following products and rotate them. 

-USN Ctyopower: Mainly during races as each serving has 150mg of caffeine.

-Biogen Carbogen and Cytogen (has 50mg of caffeine): mostly during training but I use it in races and increase the caffeine dose with gels.

-Sugar water: With electrolyte tabs and lemon juice to balance out the sweetness

I used to be a strong believer in 1 bottle with liquid carbs and 1 with just water. But recently I have moved back to liquid carbs in both bottles especially for short races. This way I don't have to pack in 3 servings into 1 bottle.

Ps. Got the best piece of advise recently from David from the Active Hobo. And it's changed my approach to fueling entirely. The less time you spend digging through your pockets, the more time you spend focusing on the effort!

[Mamil]

Another factor to consider is the recovery process - I remember reading somewhere that in ride fueling as well as post ride recovery fueling improves immune system functining which is invlved in recovery (aka the building in of the gains made in training).

Of course I know a guy who rode the whole 36one on water and electrolytes only at very low intensity - he's a strong brute on the bike and in the gym - so it can be done for sure - that isn't the discussion though, we're looking at optimal training practices.

[Ncayi]

9 minutes ago, Mamil said:

Another factor to consider is the recovery process - I remember reading somewhere that in ride fueling as well as post ride recovery fueling improves immune system functining which is invlved in recovery (aka the building in of the gains made in training).

Of course I know a guy who rode the whole 36one on water and electrolytes only at very low intensity - he's a strong brute on the bike and in the gym - so it can be done for sure - that isn't the discussion though, we're looking at optimal training practices.

I use Jesse Coyles post ride recovery protocol and it works like a dream for me. He uses a TSS/h formula to determine a g/kg of body weight carb intake.

[Martin Albrecht]

47 minutes ago, Mamil said:

Are you saying that fat adaptation is dependent on training in glycogen depleted states or perhaps on minimal carbohydrate consumption in low intensity, long duration training?

If so, it seems to me from my youtube and lay person reading of open source research that is isn't necessarily true. It looks to me that the current consensus is that low intensity and duration are primary drivers of fat adaptation and that although in a training session, availability of carbs increases insulin levels and increases carbohydrate use, this doesn't impair the ability to draw on fat reserves. It appears that so long as there is some carb shortage, fat use develops as a function of time in the saddle at low intensity. 

I am also told by these sources that gut tolerance for high carb intake is necessary for race day performance and that this is trained by carb consumption on long rides. They are also saying that preserving glycogen levels in ultra events (that I complete at a very low intensity) is important and accomplished by consistent carbohydrate fueling.

My experience bears these interpretations out - low intensity (high zone 1, low zone 2 - for me that's 160 to 230 watts) rides done fueled are more sustainable and less fatiguing 

At a minimum though I think that all statements in complex subjects like nutrition are provisional and caveated by disclaimers. The certainty I perceive in your posts I think obscures the complexity. 

 

Sorry if I was coming across as an absolutist. I have reread my posts and see how I may have come across that way. 
 

I agree everyone’s mileage may very and I 100% recommended everyone over 45 doing regular high intensity, endurance sport like cycling should get some testing done regularly and get professional advice on nutrition and training when cycling hard, because bad nutrition and overtraining can be as dangerous as being overweight can, especially as you get older. Please don’t anyone take what I am saying as gospel.

 

that said, I do disagree with the obsession with Carbs that’s starting to become the in thing again now. Very few people would be needing 90gr/h of carbs in regular cycling training, unless there is something else wrong, or you are trying to mask a bad diet with simple carbohydrates.

 

with regards to glycogen storage. That is mostly physiologically limited, and no amount of training will significantly increase your ability to store glycogen. But fat adaption is the big game changer, because the more efficient you get at burning fat instead of glycogen/carbs, the more glycogen you will have available for the sprint finishes or the big climbs at the tail end of the day. Also, training with low carb intake on 2-3 hour zone 2 rides will never deplete your glycogen stores, and doing that followed with good nutrition afterwards, will make your more efficient at replenishing glycogen stores overnight, which is also important.

If you start carb intake too early on low intensity rides, you immediately blunt the fat burning (becasue your bodies senses a more effiecient fuel source, and rather just burns the simple carbs directly out of your bloodstream). So you can’t improve your fat adaption if you have free flowing carbs in the system. 
 

in terms of training the gut, yes, you need to do that, otherwise you will be in trouble come race day. But you don’t need to consume 270gr of carbs on a three hour training ride to do that. There are also brilliant whole food options that you can consume throughout a day on the bike that will allow you to keep energy up, without GI spikes, and you can then save the gels etc for that final push at the end.

(pay attention to just how much actual food Grand Tour riders consume while on the bike in a day, for example)

[betaboy]

Gut training is important, you can’t be doing that during races. It’s only right you get comfortable with fuelling so you don’t experience discomfort with gastric issues. One of the main issues is you are asking the body to deliver more blood to process your carbs, and still expect to maintain healthy numbers to heart and lungs. Sometimes the ratio is out of balance and in most cases, your body is the bouncer and chases all those carbs out the way they came in.🤭. 

[Martin Albrecht]

40 minutes ago, 'Kaze Pete said:

My ability to train harder, go longer improved dramatically with higher carb intake. Salts/electrolytes are important but not the limiter a lack of carbs during, or post ride is.

All the carbs in the world won’t save you if you run out of electrolytes. Sodium and potassium are very important to keep things functioning. But calcium is the other one people don’t watch, because you don’t really lose it through sweat, but if your calcium levels drop too low, everything basically stops working catastrophically.