What are you drinking when training / racing?

[fatcyclist]

Been out of the scene for more than a decade. In CrossFit the WOD's were usually quick and explosive.. warm up, die for 20mins, cry a little on the floor, drive home, drink a protein shake and some creatine, rinse and repeat.

Specifically: How are the Biogen products? I can get a 15% discount on them through my old CrossFit coach (she's a sponsored athlete of theirs).

[RobertWhitehead]

Oros

[HdB]

11 minutes ago, RobertWhitehead said:

Oros

Extra Potent Oros?

[Scary Rider]

35 minutes ago, HdB said:

Extra Potent Oros?

I saw what you did there...😉🧃

[Rapunzel]

3 hours ago, RobertWhitehead said:

Oros

Ditto - orange only (lemon tasted good off the bike but on the bike is like battery acid)

I also throw in a biogen electrolyte if riding more than 2 hrs. Racing I'll sometimes use cytogen but dilute it a bit more than recommended to keep it palatable.

['Kaze Pete]

DIY malto:fructose mix in 5:4 ratio. Generally at 90g per bottle. Add table salt to taste.
I have taken the malto+fructose up to 100g per bottle with no side effect. 120g per bottle makes me feel a bit queasy, but that concentration is strictly not necessary, I just do not push enough watts for that!

For shorter training rides I just pour 60g of white sugar in each bottle (castor sugar if you do not like vigorously shaking your bottles), also with a dash of table salt.

For longer training rides:
I usually take 1 or 2 PVM energy bars along

For races:
I also whatever gel I can get my hands on (USN / Biogen mostly). Must admit that Maurten goes down and "feels" like it works, better. I also have a post breakfast PVM bar on the way there


For that little race in Midvaal during Feb where I had to do 129km, I used 198 of my DIY mix, and 2 Maurten& 2 USN Vooma gels. Think it worked out to 86grams of carbs per hour. I had no 'gastric distress', no bonk, no cramps either.

Straight after the race? yeah a PVM bar! Chocolate milk, coke, banana
 

['Kaze Pete]

12 hours ago, fatcyclist said:

Been out of the scene for more than a decade. In CrossFit the WOD's were usually quick and explosive.. warm up, die for 20mins, cry a little on the floor, drive home, drink a protein shake and some creatine, rinse and repeat.

Specifically: How are the Biogen products? I can get a 15% discount on them through my old CrossFit coach (she's a sponsored athlete of theirs).

Bicarb before the event? If you can stomach it...

[Daniel Christensen]

13 minutes ago, 'Kaze Pete said:

DIY malto:fructose mix in 5:4 ratio. Generally at 90g per bottle. Add table salt to taste.
I have taken the malto+fructose up to 100g per bottle with no side effect. 

For shorter training rides I just pour 60g of white sugar in each bottle ( also with a dash of table salt.

 

They say Pogi trained and raced on normal sugar in his younger days. 

Most of us simply cant afford R600 for a bottle of pvm that won't even last 2 weeks. I train on 120g of sugar and oros in each bottle.

Last years road champ rides on simple plain sugar now and then, you would be surprised how many young guys race on sugar. Many expensive mixes include things that physiologically cannot influence performance in real time. What more do you need than carbs and salt. 

[Martin Albrecht]

There was a similar thread a few weeks ago about carb intake. 

reading some of the above, I am again shaking my head and wondering what sort of numbers you guys are pushing that justifies all those carbs.

‘Kaze Pete seems to be pumping in more carbs than pro athletes during a TdF stage. 
 

As to the OPs question, it’s always going to boil down to what your intensity levels are, but generally speaking training rides of 2 to 3 hours long, you should be good on just plain water, maybe a bit or oros or lemon juice for taste. If it’s hot, or you are generally an heavy sweater, add some electrolyte to the bottles. Aim for around 500 to 600 mg/l of sodium (that’s about a quarter teaspoon of regular table salt per litre), and about 300mg potassium (that’s about 1/8th of a teaspoon of low sodium salt). You can use straight forward off the shelf cerebos salt (the one with the red lid is the “low sodium” potassium chloride option) to get this.

at that ratio your keeping it in the isotonic range so it can all be easily absorbed by the body without causing any unpleasant side effects.

Once you go past 3 hours, or your are really pushing very high intensities, start adding some carbs to the mix. But ideally don’t exceed 60gr/hour unless you really have to, and if you realise 60g/h isn’t cutting it, I recommend you talk to a sport nutritionist that can help you work on a fueling strategy that works for you, and won’t have long term negative effects on your liver and kindey function.

For most of us average Joe’s, our off the bike nutrition is much more important than cramming in as many carbs per hour as we can on the bike without totally messing up our guts.

At zone 2, where you should be doing the bulk of your training, you want to be using fat stores as fuel. Even a relatively untrained athlete should be getting about 70% energy from fat in a zone two session, with glycogen making up the balance. There is virtually no limit to the amount of fat you can burn. You can’t bonk when fueling with fat, so this is what you want to train your body to do.

It’s only once you go into your high tempo and threshold sessions that you start fueling almost exclusively from glycogen stores, and then it’s important to keep them up by fueling with simple carbohydrates so that you don’t bonk. 
 

But I see so many people that start off going heavy on the carbs from the get go consistently. Then you can not achieve higher fat adaptions, and if you are running on carbs from the get go, you are going to run into trouble on longer rides or races (especially longer than 3 hours), because you are going to reach your GI limits too soon, then deplete all your glycogen and then bonk hard towards the end.

If you do proper zone 2 fasted training regularly, you teach your body to be more efficient, and you increase your glycogen storage capacity in your muscles, which should be the ultimate goal, as that is always where the power is going to come from for the big efforts late into a race.

Dont bother with carbs, especially on training rides under 2 hours, unless it’s a threshold or above session.

For races, try keep carb intake below 60g/h for as long as possible (but obviously this will need to be tweaked based on intensity etc)

[NotSoBigBen]

1 hour ago, Martin Albrecht said:

There was a similar thread a few weeks ago about carb intake. 

reading some of the above, I am again shaking my head and wondering what sort of numbers you guys are pushing that justifies all those carbs.

‘Kaze Pete seems to be pumping in more carbs than pro athletes during a TdF stage. 
 

As to the OPs question, it’s always going to boil down to what your intensity levels are, but generally speaking training rides of 2 to 3 hours long, you should be good on just plain water, maybe a bit or oros or lemon juice for taste. If it’s hot, or you are generally an heavy sweater, add some electrolyte to the bottles. Aim for around 500 to 600 mg/l of sodium (that’s about a quarter teaspoon of regular table salt per litre), and about 300mg potassium (that’s about 1/8th of a teaspoon of low sodium salt). You can use straight forward off the shelf cerebos salt (the one with the red lid is the “low sodium” potassium chloride option) to get this.

at that ratio your keeping it in the isotonic range so it can all be easily absorbed by the body without causing any unpleasant side effects.

Once you go past 3 hours, or your are really pushing very high intensities, start adding some carbs to the mix. But ideally don’t exceed 60gr/hour unless you really have to, and if you realise 60g/h isn’t cutting it, I recommend you talk to a sport nutritionist that can help you work on a fueling strategy that works for you, and won’t have long term negative effects on your liver and kindey function.

For most of us average Joe’s, our off the bike nutrition is much more important than cramming in as many carbs per hour as we can on the bike without totally messing up our guts.

At zone 2, where you should be doing the bulk of your training, you want to be using fat stores as fuel. Even a relatively untrained athlete should be getting about 70% energy from fat in a zone two session, with glycogen making up the balance. There is virtually no limit to the amount of fat you can burn. You can’t bonk when fueling with fat, so this is what you want to train your body to do.

It’s only once you go into your high tempo and threshold sessions that you start fueling almost exclusively from glycogen stores, and then it’s important to keep them up by fueling with simple carbohydrates so that you don’t bonk. 
 

But I see so many people that start off going heavy on the carbs from the get go consistently. Then you can not achieve higher fat adaptions, and if you are running on carbs from the get go, you are going to run into trouble on longer rides or races (especially longer than 3 hours), because you are going to reach your GI limits too soon, then deplete all your glycogen and then bonk hard towards the end.

If you do proper zone 2 fasted training regularly, you teach your body to be more efficient, and you increase your glycogen storage capacity in your muscles, which should be the ultimate goal, as that is always where the power is going to come from for the big efforts late into a race.

Dont bother with carbs, especially on training rides under 2 hours, unless it’s a threshold or above session.

For races, try keep carb intake below 60g/h for as long as possible (but obviously this will need to be tweaked based on intensity etc)

I've known @'Kaze Pete for a long time ... just trust me he needs it. He's also one of those that does what he has researched and found to be right not what the 'cool kids' are doing

Just saying 🤪

[JacquesJ]

8 hours ago, 'Kaze Pete said:

DIY malto:fructose mix in 5:4 ratio. Generally at 90g per bottle. Add table salt to taste.
I have taken the malto+fructose up to 100g per bottle with no side effect. 120g per bottle makes me feel a bit queasy, but that concentration is strictly not necessary, I just do not push enough watts for that!

For shorter training rides I just pour 60g of white sugar in each bottle (castor sugar if you do not like vigorously shaking your bottles), also with a dash of table salt.

For longer training rides:
I usually take 1 or 2 PVM energy bars along

For races:
I also whatever gel I can get my hands on (USN / Biogen mostly). Must admit that Maurten goes down and "feels" like it works, better. I also have a post breakfast PVM bar on the way there


For that little race in Midvaal during Feb where I had to do 129km, I used 198 of my DIY mix, and 2 Maurten& 2 USN Vooma gels. Think it worked out to 86grams of carbs per hour. I had no 'gastric distress', no bonk, no cramps either.

Straight after the race? yeah a PVM bar! Chocolate milk, coke, banana
 

Where do you buy your malto and fructose in SA?

[Michael S]

1 hour ago, JacquesJ said:

Where do you buy your malto and fructose in SA?

Also curious.

I get the Biogen "Pure Carbs" from Dischem (Which is malto) 

https://www.dischem.co.za/biogen-pure-carbs-1kg-898?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=17931507049&gbraid=0AAAAAo1J0Tyer3vfh1emvgc2eNibkNxdB&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtfXMBhDzARIsAJ0jp3AH4aZbxkDES22AFaxGZaVIGmDsMdl7WU7IvcNigHxFeoQ-ijQb6hAaAqRdEALw_wcB

 

R180/kg is expensive but as I do Dischem orders anyway monthly it works out to be the same as from the craft beer shops when delivery is factored in. CraftBeerSa or CactusCraft it can be had for R50 odd per kg. If you are close to one of those shops, the  cheapest for sure.

 

Fructose is easier to get, I usually grab the lifestyle foods one from Dischem, again for convenience at R160 odd per kg. 

Use a similar mix than Katze, works well. (When not prodding along at Z2)

 

Edited February 25 by Michael S

[Martin Albrecht]

40 minutes ago, JacquesJ said:

Where do you buy your malto and fructose in SA?

You can get it from Dischem or most health shops or home brewing/garagistsa suppliers. Fructose you can also just get in by using a fruit juice as your base if you want. 

Honey is also a great option to mix into your bottles, or just chow straight up, since it’s naturally on average a mix of about 40% fructose, 35% Glucose and about 8% Maltose (or other disaccharides)

Edited February 25 by Martin Albrecht

[Mamil]

Ja without the carbs, even on a 3 hour zone 2 ride, I tire early and when I get home I bury myself in the fridge opening tupperwares and smashing leftovers.

If I fuel at about 40 to 60g of carbs I finish feeling fresh and I don't behave like a glutton at an all you can eat buffet.

For ultras (36one etc) I carry a bar bag full of gels and smash 30 to 40 g of carbs in addition to whatever looks appealing at the race villages and water points.

Last night's 1hr 20 minute mostly high zone 3 through to zone 7 zwift race I smashed 80 grams of carbs and I wasn't that hungry at dinner time.

 

 

[Super Sywurm]

AI assisted me with a recipe:

Making your own sports drink is a smart move—it’s essentially a "homemade Pedialyte" or oral rehydration solution (ORS). At its core, hydration is about the balance of glucose (sugar) helping your body absorb sodium (salt) and water faster.
Here is the precise ratio for a 750ml bottle:
Homemade Electrolyte Drink
 * Water: 750ml (about 3 cups)
 * Sugar: 1.5 to 2 tablespoons (approx. 20–25g)
 * Salt: 1/4 teaspoon (approx. 1.5g)
How to Prepare
 * Mix: Add the sugar and salt to your bottle.
 * Dissolve: Pour in about 100ml of warm water first and shake until the crystals disappear.
 * Fill: Top it off with the remaining cold water.
 * Chill: It tastes significantly better when cold!
Why this works
The sugar isn't just for taste; it triggers the sodium-glucose cotransport mechanism in your small intestine. Essentially, the sugar acts like a "key" that opens the door for the water and salt to enter your bloodstream much faster than plain water would.

[Martin Albrecht]

7 minutes ago, Michael S said:

(When not prodding along at Z2)

 

Classy comment there. 
 

Maybe if you guys spent some more quality saddle time “prodding along” in Zone 2, you would actually improve your overall performance significantly, and could afford to spend some time getting your all around nutrition sorted, along with training proper fat adaptions.

You do realise that upwards of 80% of your training should be happening in Zone 2 right?