LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[jcza]

Does anyone know where you can get Ucan in JHB? I know it was in the old thread...

 

Sportsman Warehouse (Woodmead) also stocked it

[davetapson]

Does anyone know where you can get Ucan in JHB? I know it was in the old thread...

 

I get it direct from Daneel as per htone's post.

 

They do have it at Neal's Yard in Fourways (expensive) and at time the Sportsmans Warehouse at Woodmead (and I think Fourways?)

[Helpmytrap]

I see there is Macadamia Nut Butter for sale in the classifieds. Anyone have experience with the supplier or product?

 

http://www.thehubsa....-peanut-butter/

 

From the pictures given, the packaging is identical to the stuff I bought at Ambassador Foods retail store at Parkview shopping centre (unfortunately it has closed down since then.)

If it is the same product that I tried, ie Almond and Peanut butter, I can highly recommend. But will have to wait and see.

[Snytjie]

 

Now for the catch......: I cannot cycle on the diet. I know I need to get fully adapted, but I do not know if I can struggle any further. Did the Clarens Marathon earlier the year and just couldn't get going. FInished quite strong (after taking a gel) but in general couldn't get the intensity up. Tried hard and HR was in general very high but struggled most of the day. I however decided to stick it through and hope for an improvement...

 

Did the Hazeldean marathon yesterday (even though I had some FutureLife ahead of time to try and feel better). I ended up struggling even more. HR was high again but had no power and couldn't get going. Even after 2 gels... Ended up with a really bad time and beaten by my friends( I usually beat by 15-20 min...).

 

So after getting depressed about it I decided: I am going to let myself go I have a bit of a cheat day. Had 3 beers, mashed potatoes for supper as well as 2 buns... Decided to go for a quick ride through Groenkloof this morning - had a muffin and cup of coffee (with 1 sugar) beforehand and felt uber strong on the bike. All the weakness was gone and really had the power back. The same friends were with again and I could really see how my performance increased.

 

So I am frustrated and do not know what to do. Return to medium carbs, fat and protein / continue with LCHF / continue with LCHF but "carb up" the day before a race / try to adjust carbs a bit higher and keep to high fat....

 

I REALLY DONT KNOW!!! ADVISE PLZ...

 

Hi Eben,

 

Reading Phil Maffetone, Joe Friel and Peter Attia's work on exercise and low- carb diets, I have learnt that your body will always need substantial amounts of carbs (which it convert to glycogen for fuel) in addition to fat when doing extended and/or endurance racing. The higher your heart rate goes, the more substantial the proportion of carbs/glycogen needed. Your body can only store a limited amount of carbs/glycogen (about 1500 kcal) in its muscle cells, which means that you will have to get additional glycogen somewhere.

 

You can get the additional glycogen in one of two ways: digestion of carbs or by means of your liver converting protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). If you do not digest carbs during high intensity racing, your body will have to rely on the latter (see Attia's writings on this). I suspect that this contributes to the 4-6 months of adaptation everyone speaks about: your body has to learn to get additional glycogen through liver function rather than digestion. This is probably why you struggle currently with high intensity racing while not digesting carbs.

 

My opinion is that I'd rather give my body the needed carbs in the easiest way during intensive training/racing digesting low- GI carbs.

[Snytjie]

 

1. Maff says train at 180 - age (which for me = 180 - 49 - 131).

2. Maff says NEVER to exceed this in training.

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

I got it a little differently from Maffetone. He does allow for anaerobic/high intensity training, but states that it shouldn't be more than 10 weeks and only following an extended periond of base training. He also states that as little as four weeks of anaerobic training is adequate, and that you can follow any of the tried and tested methods like Fartlek etc.

 

To me the important thing seemed to build proper base before doing a little bit of high intensity, race- pace training.

[Roux 1]

http://www.enduranceplanet.com/dr-phil-maffetone-the-power-of-aerobic-training-when-to-do-speed-work-clean-eating-for-athletes-strength-training-and-more/

 

Maffetone podcast

[htone]

Hi Eben,

 

Reading Phil Maffetone, Joe Friel and Peter Attia's work on exercise and low- carb diets, I have learnt that your body will always need substantial amounts of carbs (which it convert to glycogen for fuel) in addition to fat when doing extended and/or endurance racing. The higher your heart rate goes, the more substantial the proportion of carbs/glycogen needed. Your body can only store a limited amount of carbs/glycogen (about 1500 kcal) in its muscle cells, which means that you will have to get additional glycogen somewhere.

 

You can get the additional glycogen in one of two ways: digestion of carbs or by means of your liver converting protein into glucose (gluconeogenesis). If you do not digest carbs during high intensity racing, your body will have to rely on the latter (see Attia's writings on this). I suspect that this contributes to the 4-6 months of adaptation everyone speaks about: your body has to learn to get additional glycogen through liver function rather than digestion. This is probably why you struggle currently with high intensity racing while not digesting carbs.

 

My opinion is that I'd rather give my body the needed carbs in the easiest way during intensive training/racing digesting low- GI carbs.

 

Hi Snytjie - I just need to point out that the whole point of staying on LCHF while training is to "force" your body to adapt to use fat (ketones) for fuel, rather than glucose or carbs. If you continue to feed carbs during training, you will inhibit this adaptation from happening, or at the very least prolong it.

 

One has to keep this in mind when you move to a LCHF lifestyle - you may not perform at your peak during races for the first few months, but the overall health benefits should offer a compelling reason to allow time to adapt fully. If however you are one of those who does not have the patience, then accept that you may forever rely on some source of carbs for fuel during strenuous exercise. But this is a personal choice that should not influence living a low-carb lifestyle or at the very least enjoy some form of paleo diet.

 

If I look at Maffetone's writings I am convinced that he "almost" got to the point of saying that you could adapt completely but then left that out because it may have been controversial. But that's just how I like to read it

[Longtravel]

Hi Guys,

 

Looking for a bit of advise.

 

I have been LCHF for about two months now. Initial period was terrible, no energy etc. That improved somewhat and think i have adapted to burning fat. The one problem that i am finding is that my legs seem to "lactate" as soon as i up the tempo. It feels almost as if my muscles run out of energy and i have to back off to let my legs recover, before being able to push the pace again. I have been training on water and have used super starch for races. If i do two consecutive days of riding my legs feel very heavy ie recovery post ride seems to be slower than normal. My heart rate generally is very high on rides > 70% of max, to keep it down i would have to ride really slowly, i know this probably puts me in a zone where my body will be trying to burn glucose, but note sure how to avoid this. I have been upping my sodium intake but still feel fairly dehydrated after a ride. Ant advise would be appreciated

[Karl Beaton]

started following the LCHF diet 4 weeks 60:9:31 (F:C:P) determined from blood tests etc ... my question is when loosing weight does it plateau and then loose or is it constant. will keep you posted on progress

[P.A.K.]

Here is a good article about magnesium deficiency and supplements, shared by Jimmy Moore on Twitter:

Magnesium Deficiency Is Behind Many Disease States

[davetapson]

Just an observation on the 'needing to take in cho during exercise' vs gluconeogenesis and Friel vs Maff. vs Noakes etc...

 

The idea of not needing to take in energy for endurance events is completely new. Noakes has only tweeted about it as far as I know, and apart from maybe a magazine article or two, nothing in scientific literature about it (afaik).

 

Friel and Maff most likely would not have known that it is possible to compete using gluconeogensis for cho production - from what htone says, maybe Maff had an inkling that it is possible.

 

So, I'm waiting for Friel to mention it somewhere, after which I will consider it as having gone 'mainstream'. Friel and Noakes did meet when Friel was out here a few months ago, and I'm sure Noakes would have mentioned it.

 

Regarding taking in CHO or not during exercise - I don't think there is a right or wrong for this.

 

The extreme end of the continuum is that you don't need to - if you put in the ground work and get fully adapted. If this is all too much PT, then do the paleo/LCHF thing for the benefits it brings, and supplement as Friel suggests. If Paleo/LCHF is not giving you any benefits, then don't do it. What would the point be if it was not?

 

For me, the benefit of not having to stress about fine tuning cho suppl. to get through something like Barberton or Sabie and knowing that if I run into trouble a cup of coke will light me up like a rocket ship is awesome.

 

I used to need Epic Pro or Cadence Marathon to get through Day 2 of Sani without feeling like death near the end. Now I can probably do the first 2/3 of the day on water and pick up a chelsea bun and cup or two of coke and I'm hundreds. But it does take time. And it was totally worth it. Maybe plan do this over winter or sometime when you are not racing heavily - or do it > 6 months before whatever race is important in your life.

 

That I no longer have to spend R300+ for a tub of fancy sugar doesn't cause me any pain either...

[tombeej]

what Dave says

[DaleE]

I think Dave is on the right track here ... just to add one more thought ...

 

The issue of what's possible without refuelling for me is a question of intensity. For endurance events where I am operating at <80% of max HR for most of the time, it seems (from literature and personal experience) that I can go for 5-6 hrs on water only - so presumably the body is burning fat?

 

However .... as soon as the intensity goes up (think things like Argus where it's cruise-sprint-cruise-hill-cruise-sprint), then some carbs (ucan) do seem to make a difference. This difference also seems to b getting less over time, so perhaps fat adaption is improving?

There was a table showing carb and fat usage at different rates of intensity a while back - think it was from Volak, but can't find it now.

[tombeej]

what Dale says

[davetapson]

I think Dave is on the right track here ... just to add one more thought ...

 

The issue of what's possible without refuelling for me is a question of intensity. For endurance events where I am operating at <80% of max HR for most of the time, it seems (from literature and personal experience) that I can go for 5-6 hrs on water only - so presumably the body is burning fat?

 

However .... as soon as the intensity goes up (think things like Argus where it's cruise-sprint-cruise-hill-cruise-sprint), then some carbs (ucan) do seem to make a difference. This difference also seems to b getting less over time, so perhaps fat adaption is improving?

There was a table showing carb and fat usage at different rates of intensity a while back - think it was from Volak, but can't find it now.

 

Htone called it 'surfing the bonk' or something - that you can feel when you have to tap off or you are going to bonk.

 

It seems that the intensity at which you can surf the bonk increases over time, and that if you want to go at a higher intensity than this will allow, then you need the supplementation.

[jcza]

My understanding of fuel required is as follows:

 

0 - 70% of max HR: 85% fat, 10% carbs, 5% protein

70% - 80%: 50% carbs, 50% fat

80% >: 15% fat, 85% carbs

 

I suggest reading Friel & Cordain, Paleo Diet for Endurance Athletes. Explains this in great detail.

 

Lower HR on water only and you can go for a long time. Personally I don't carbo load or even add any carbs pre-race but I do take carbs while racing.

 

Guys struggling with power, were you fit when you started LCHF? Or did you start training and LCHF at the same time? Remember you still need to do the miles and it was mentioned before, you need to train on water only and get your body used to it.