LCHF - Low Carb High Fat Diet Ver 2

[DaleE]

Thanks jcza but I am more concerned about high intensity long distance rides/races what i dont understand is if i use carbs on the bike how does it effect Ketosis and how long would it take to get rid of the effects? the reason i am asking is everybody knows the saying that one bad meal wont make you fat but one good meal wont make you loose weight but does this kind of theory apply with LCHF? what i am thinking is to maintain a LCHF diet but use carbs on the bike... would this work?

 

There is no 'right' answer to the question of how many carbs for racing or training ... each of us is different and you will need to find your own recipe.

Personally I train only with water - did 160km on the weekend water only - but that's for LSD stuff.

For racing <3hrs, also water only

For racing >3hrs then some UCAN (super starch)

MTB stage racing, water and macadamia nuts - a good mix of fat with little carbs in.

 

Go back a few pages and you will find an excellent post from Davetapson regarding his burg n bush experience, also some stuff about receptors that may shed some light on carbs during exercise.

 

But, what is really important is to try leaving those carbo drinks at home for a couple of training rides. So what if you bonk once or twice and have to limp home? if you dont try, you will never be free of the crutch

 

Lastly, fat adaption on the bike takes time - months not weeks - don't start this journey if you plan to race in the next month or so - that is a sure way to fail.

[jcza]

i like your approach of living LCHF but racing with carbs have you still managed to drop weight with this approach?

 

My weight is quite stable and I have never added weight due to consuming carbs during or post-race.

[DaleE]

i like your approach of living LCHF but racing with carbs have you still managed to drop weight with this approach?

 

Not sure how much of the LCHF literature you have read, but it's worth remembering that LCHF is about HEALTH. the weight loss is a side effect, not the primary driver.

Reason I mention this is that I've seen a few folk go crazy on LCHF because they did not loose weight. Fat % down, blood work better, cholesterol better, trig better, etc, etc, but they considered it a 'failure' because they didn't loose weight.

 

I'm of the opinion that your cycling will improve on LCHF even if your weight only drops a little.

[Face Plant]

There is no 'right' answer to the question of how many carbs for racing or training ... each of us is different and you will need to find your own recipe.

Personally I train only with water - did 160km on the weekend water only - but that's for LSD stuff.

For racing <3hrs, also water only

For racing >3hrs then some UCAN (super starch)

MTB stage racing, water and macadamia nuts - a good mix of fat with little carbs in.

 

Go back a few pages and you will find an excellent post from Davetapson regarding his burg n bush experience, also some stuff about receptors that may shed some light on carbs during exercise.

 

But, what is really important is to try leaving those carbo drinks at home for a couple of training rides. So what if you bonk once or twice and have to limp home? if you dont try, you will never be free of the crutch

 

Lastly, fat adaption on the bike takes time - months not weeks - don't start this journey if you plan to race in the next month or so - that is a sure way to fail.

 

ahhh man why did you have to make so much sense???

 

unfortunately i have started the journey and am going to race so my next question then is the adaption process will be compromised so long as you are using carbs? i have to be realistic about my expectations/intentions. i am 37 years old and like most guys this age its a ongoing process to keep in shape, i have had to stop triathlons due to a back injury and i now find that with a normal diet and just cycling i cant shed any weight, i need to drop about 5kgs to be at my ideal race weight so i my motivation for going on a LCHF diet is 1. to loose some weight and 2. to avoid grains sugar etc, but from what i have read, it does not help to eliminate grains, sugar etc and still take in carbs in other forms so if i can live LCHF and race with carbs i will be very happy but i dont know if i will shed the kilos with this approach?

[DaleE]

ahhh man why did you have to make so much sense???

 

 

Ill take that as a compliment

 

Ok, if I was in your shoes, I'd do the following:

Stick with LCHF as far as possible off the bike. If you are looking for a good guideline LCHF diet that will almost certainly help you loose weight, then read this ...http://www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/30 take careful note of the olive oil intake as energy source.

If you have to have carbs, go for the natural ones like root vegetables. just stay away from processed or sugary or low fat foods.

 

Then ... seeing as you want to race sooner than you should ...

As many LSD rides on water only as you can manage. Take some nuts with you if you're really worried about energy. Cashews at first (hi carb content) progress to brazils or macadamias.

Occasional interval or hill training with UCAN. I know there are many 'lo GI' and "slow release' things on the market. UCAN is the only one i trust. it will not spike your blood sugar and probably wont even kick you out of ketosis.

 

And ... dont be scared of the bonk. you will quickly learn to feel the bonk coming on and be able to temper your effort to manage it.

If your cycling mates won't wait for you ... find other mates or ride alone for a month or two till you are back up to speed.

[Face Plant]

Ill take that as a compliment

 

Ok, if I was in your shoes, I'd do the following:

Stick with LCHF as far as possible off the bike. If you are looking for a good guideline LCHF diet that will almost certainly help you loose weight, then read this ...http://www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/30 take careful note of the olive oil intake as energy source.

If you have to have carbs, go for the natural ones like root vegetables. just stay away from processed or sugary or low fat foods.

 

Then ... seeing as you want to race sooner than you should ...

As many LSD rides on water only as you can manage. Take some nuts with you if you're really worried about energy. Cashews at first (hi carb content) progress to brazils or macadamias.

Occasional interval or hill training with UCAN. I know there are many 'lo GI' and "slow release' things on the market. UCAN is the only one i trust. it will not spike your blood sugar and probably wont even kick you out of ketosis.

 

And ... dont be scared of the bonk. you will quickly learn to feel the bonk coming on and be able to temper your effort to manage it.

If your cycling mates won't wait for you ... find other mates or ride alone for a month or two till you are back up to speed.

 

Thanks Dale, this is some valuable feedback!! and yes the sense thing was a compliment! one last thing any advise on where to get UCAN? i have googled it and cant find anything local?

[DaleE]

Thanks Dale, this is some valuable feedback!! and yes the sense thing was a compliment! one last thing any advise on where to get UCAN? i have googled it and cant find anything local?

 

IIRC was available at Sportsmans wharehouse in JHB area.

Otherwise mail them directly and they will ship to you. genucan.sa@googlemail.com

 

 

or twitter @GenUCAN_SA

Edited October 22, 2013 by DaleE

[Face Plant]

Shot dude!

[davetapson]

Ok LC'rs... here's a new one for you.

 

Have just recovered from a stomach bug picked up from my kids. This was yesterday. Yesterday was easy, I just didn't eat - being fat adapted and feeling crap made it easy. I still haven't eaten today - beginning to feel a bit peckish, but the normal diet post-stomach bug is dry toast / something bland (read starchy).

 

So what do we do?

Edited October 22, 2013 by davetapson

[jcza]

Ok LC'rs... here's a new one for you.

 

Have just recovered from a stomach bug picked up from my kids. This was yesterday. Yesterday was easy, I just didn't eat - being fat adapted and feeling crap made it easy. I still haven't eaten today - beginning to feel a bit peckish, but the normal diet post-stomach bug is dry toast / something bland (read starchy).

 

So what do we do?

 

Ensure?

[HappyMartin]

 

:clap:

 

Thanks Martin,

 

you have just made my day! i do however assume that weight loss will be compromised due to the intake of carbs? i dont even expect to have carbs after a ride but before and during i will be a happy man

 

I keep my weight quite stable. At the moment I am losing weight. About 500g a week. I am 52, body fat is currently 12%. It went down to 9% at the beginning of the year and that's where I am going now.

[Topwine]

Yeah, that does worry me - the absolute last thing I want to do is stuff up my metabolism somehow so that I can never eat carbs again. I do plan to stick with this, but I definitely foresee times when I won't be lchf - traveling for eg.

There do seem to be some people out there who think there are negative metabolic consequences for lc though, but I haven't been convinced by anything I've read yet - anyone else done research in that direction?

 

It depends if you really are serious in reading alternative viewpoints. Only those that are able to look at things from both perspectives equally, generally find the truth. There are many sources to read that highlite the health disadvantages of a very low carb diet, with the emphasis on very low or ketogenic diets in normal people. Seek and you shall find ... Better you find it yourself than somebody recommends sources, otherwise it's a case of shoot the messenger on a close minded forum of low carbers.

 

It's almost a given that with continuous Low Carb diets that you are going to have reduced ability to process glucose. At least initially when you do consume again and depending on how long you did, it might take a long time for your body to heal again, if ever.

 

Stress, low calories and heavy endurance exercise increases estrogen, damages mitochondria, lowers metabolism, increases cortisol and adrenaline etc, all the stress hormones wich cause rapid aging, heart damage and calcification of arteries. First to go is reduced thymus size (immune system) , thyroid gland size, sex drive, etc, etc.

[P.A.K.]

 

 

It depends if you really are serious in reading alternative viewpoints. Only those that are able to look at things from both perspectives equally, generally find the truth. There are many sources to read that highlite the health disadvantages of a very low carb diet, with the emphasis on very low or ketogenic diets in normal people. Seek and you shall find ... Better you find it yourself than somebody recommends sources, otherwise it's a case of shoot the messenger on a close minded forum of low carbers.

 

It's almost a given that with continuous Low Carb diets that you are going to have reduced ability to process glucose. At least initially when you do consume again and depending on how long you did, it might take a long time for your body to heal again, if ever.

 

Stress, low calories and heavy endurance exercise increases estrogen, damages mitochondria, lowers metabolism, increases cortisol and adrenaline etc, all the stress hormones wich cause rapid aging, heart damage and calcification of arteries. First to go is reduced thymus size (immune system) , thyroid gland size, sex drive, etc, etc.

You forgot to mention Ray Peat

[Topwine]

You forgot to mention Ray Peat

 

which reminds me ... another symptom is reduced cognitive ability ...

[DaleE]

It depends if you really are serious in reading alternative viewpoints. Only those that are able to look at things from both perspectives equally, generally find the truth. There are many sources to read that highlite the health disadvantages of a very low carb diet, with the emphasis on very low or ketogenic diets in normal people. Seek and you shall find ... Better you find it yourself than somebody recommends sources, otherwise it's a case of shoot the messenger on a close minded forum of low carbers.

 

It's almost a given that with continuous Low Carb diets that you are going to have reduced ability to process glucose. At least initially when you do consume again and depending on how long you did, it might take a long time for your body to heal again, if ever.

 

Stress, low calories and heavy endurance exercise increases estrogen, damages mitochondria, lowers metabolism, increases cortisol and adrenaline etc, all the stress hormones wich cause rapid aging, heart damage and calcification of arteries. First to go is reduced thymus size (immune system) , thyroid gland size, sex drive, etc, etc.

 

Hi Topwine,

I think that the kind of metabolic 'damage' you refer to is as a result of near-zero carb based diets being used in the wrong environment i.e. the kind that are used for managing epilepsy, cancer, etc. being used by 'normal' folk. If you have info on how a regular low carb diet can be harmful, please share it here ... I'm not looking to shoot the messenger, but we're all trying to understand what's best for us. My daughter (epilepsy) and I (cardiac issues) are both following low carb diets, but at very different levels with different management techniques, so while they are technically both LCHF, they are practically very different ... it's the principle that is the same.

 

As an aside, one of the frustrations I have with the dietary movement as a whole is the lack of standardisation. What exactly do we mean by low carb? is it <20g carbs per day? <50? <200? ... and when does the diet go from high fat to hi protein??

And where do we draw the line between Paleo and LCHF? Each 'expert' has his own opinion.

I guess what I can getting to is that when one study refers to low carb, that may be very different to the carb levels in another study.

 

In the same way, what constitutes "heavy exercise"? if you asked my sedentary 75 year old mother she will tell you a half marathon is 'heavy' .... I cycled 6hrs on Sunday and did not consider it heavy. In other words horses for courses. When considering damage, diet, potential problems and benefits it's critical to see if the study in case applies to you.

 

So, please share .... we're looking to learn

 

Edit for spelling

Edited October 22, 2013 by DaleE

[Topwine]

Hi Topwine,

I think that the kind of metabolic 'damage' you refer to is as a result of near-zero carb based diets being used in the wrong environment i.e. the kind that are used for managing epilepsy, cancer, etc. being used by 'normal' folk. If you have info on how a regular low carb diet can be harmful, please share it here ... I'm not looking to shoot the messenger, but we're all trying to understand what's best for us. My daughter (epilepsy) and I (cardiac issues) are both following low carb diets, but at very different levels with different management techniques, so while they are technically both LCHF, they are practically very different ... it's the principle that is the same.

 

As an aside, one of the frustrations I have with the dietary movement as a whole is the lack of standardisation. What exactly do we mean by low carb? is it <20g carbs per day? <50? <200? ... and when does the diet go from high fat to hi protein??

I guess what I can getting to is that when one study refers to low carb, that may be very different to the carb levels in another study.

 

In the same way, what constitutes "heavy exercise"? if you asked my sedentary 75 year old mother she will tell you a half marathon is 'heavy' .... I cycled 6hrs on Sunday and did not consider it heavy. In other words horses for courses. When considering damage, diet, potential problems and benefits it's critical to see if the study in case applies to you.

 

So, please share .... we're looking to learn

 

Edit for spelling

 

Hi Dale

 

Sorry to hear about your daughter. I am willing to discuss what I have learned and share with you via PM, because most people on this thread have made it quite clear that they are only interested in pro LC information and discard anything or anyone with the opposite viewpoint. I once thought LC was the holy grail as well, and practiced it (VLC/ketogenic) for about 9 months, but that was before I knew better. I don't discount it's value in certain therapeutic uses, but don't think it's a long term sollution.