nigelhicks Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 To deviate slightly from the thread why don't our mountain bikers perform not only in XCO, but we don't do well either in XCM which is really big in SA. If we take a sport such as canoeing we have the senior world marathon champion as well as the winner and runner up in the under 23's. XCM is massive in SA, but we don't perform at elite level on the world stage. Because there isnt really a true world stage - there is no real Marathon World Cup for the guys to race in (there is World Champs - but thats like a once off) .... So the guys who race the World Cup XCO also race the Marathon Worlds ... So the level between SA Pro and International Pro is exceptional ... so for our guys to do well on the World Marathon Champs they need to be racing World Cup XCO to get that exposure to the speed etc ...This doesnt happen as it is expensive to go over and start racing as a semi pro trying to get a break on the circuit.
Brian Fantana Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 To deviate slightly from the thread why don't our mountain bikers perform not only in XCO, but we don't do well either in XCM which is really big in SA. If we take a sport such as canoeing we have the senior world marathon champion as well as the winner and runner up in the under 23's. XCM is massive in SA, but we don't perform at elite level on the world stage. A quick example. The 2013 Marathon World Champs was in Austria. Sauser won, with Lakata second. The route was 94km with 4000m of climbing, yeah you read correctly 4000m. The National ultra marathon coming up in Dullstroom is 118km with 2000m of climbing. Our races will never have the same level of climbing as the European marathons, and if you look past mechanicals, marathons are won on the climbs.
Slowbee Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 seems I was on the slow, and the hub on the fast ... https://www.bikehub.co.za/features/_/mtb/sa-mtb/african-continental-xcodhi-champs-for-cape-town-in-january-r1125 common guys lets get there to support ! Tumbleweed, Super_mil and nigelhicks 3
Oceana Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Very good questionNormally I would say lack of exposure to international racing standards (larger fields of highly competitive athletes) but that's not exactly the case anymore (for XCM) as a lot of the top riders now spend time in SA training and racing during the European winter. What are the canoeing fraternity doing that's different? I know years ago there used to be some overseas canoeists and coaches that would come to SA in their winters to train, maybe that was it and XCM just needs more time? I don't think its anything that Canoeing SA is doing, but beleive its more that we have some incredibly talented and hard working athletes. Hank McGregor for instance should be listed as one of SA's greatest sportsmen ever. I think if you have an athlete like that then it inspires the younger guys to try and emulate him. This is probably where SA will really feel Burry's death the most. We also have a very long tradition of multiday stage river races which the guys grow up on, and the switch to marathon racing is fairly easy. We do have a number of international canoeists now training in SA, and a place like Lakeside in CT has become a winter base for a number of world champions. A training squad has been set up there and its possible to have 40+ canoeists out there at 5.30 in the morning - many of them still school kids. Another paddling sport where SA is excelling is surfski where we are number 1 in the world although admittedly it is still very limited world wide and Australia are our only competitors. SwissVan 1
Oceana Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Because there isnt really a true world stage - there is no real Marathon World Cup for the guys to race in (there is World Champs - but thats like a once off) .... So the guys who race the World Cup XCO also race the Marathon Worlds ... So the level between SA Pro and International Pro is exceptional ... so for our guys to do well on the World Marathon Champs they need to be racing World Cup XCO to get that exposure to the speed etc ...This doesnt happen as it is expensive to go over and start racing as a semi pro trying to get a break on the circuit. It is very similar in canoeing though. For the most part the guys just race the local river races, but when they do head over to do World Champs they really perform, and SA is known to be one of the strongest canoeing nations. Its very interesting to listen to the European commentary and they always have great respect for the SA athletes.
SwissVan Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I don't think its anything that Canoeing SA is doing, but beleive its more that we have some incredibly talented and hard working athletes. Hank McGregor for instance should be listed as one of SA's greatest sportsmen ever. I think if you have an athlete like that then it inspires the younger guys to try and emulate him. This is probably where SA will really feel Burry's death the most. We also have a very long tradition of multiday stage river races which the guys grow up on, and the switch to marathon racing is fairly easy. We do have a number of international canoeists now training in SA, and a place like Lakeside in CT has become a winter base for a number of world champions. A training squad has been set up there and its possible to have 40+ canoeists out there at 5.30 in the morning - many of them still school kids. Another paddling sport where SA is excelling is surfski where we are number 1 in the world although admittedly it is still very limited world wide and Australia are our only competitors. I think I figured out why.... You're right SA has a history of multi stage long distance events, kind of like mtbking There are no mountains to climb in canoeing unless your portaging
SwissVan Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Just thought of another reason why I liked XCo racing... The ability to recce the course and practice on it before racing, and no chance of getting lost. Didn't like racing (XCM) and not knowing exactly what is coming up / going down and then the occasional times when you miss a turn or something and get lost.... nigelhicks 1
Oceana Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 A quick example. The 2013 Marathon World Champs was in Austria. Sauser won, with Lakata second. The route was 94km with 4000m of climbing, yeah you read correctly 4000m. The National ultra marathon coming up in Dullstroom is 118km with 2000m of climbing. Our races will never have the same level of climbing as the European marathons, and if you look past mechanicals, marathons are won on the climbs. Then it sounds like there is a problem at an organisational / structural level. If you want to compete with the best you have to train and race like the best.
Edgar Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Comparing marathon canoeing is not accurate, we do perform well in the marathon distance at worlds. We perform very badly at sprints which is the Olympic discipline a lot like XCO. Here the similarities are many. Little funding and support and the sponsors and media don't get behind it. The athletes are certainly not helping either, the best performing athletes are trying and living in Europe so don't give sponsors coverage. Same problems in these minor sports are going to battle. Although there seems to be a change in MTB with teams giving the up and coming athletes a chance and encouraging them to do XCO. Velolife, Kargo and ASG seem to be doing great work.
(Deon) Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 CSA's site has so little info, including the 'more info PDF'. How many laps, elevation, start times etc.. these things are surely of interest? Should I have to google it? Anyone want to take a guess why XCO is just bumbling along? This is Africa Champs, right? G e r h a r d Odendaal 1
Shebeen Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Comparing marathon canoeing is not accurate, we do perform well in the marathon distance at worlds. We perform very badly at sprints which is the Olympic discipline a lot like XCO. Here the similarities are many. Little funding and support and the sponsors and media don't get behind it. The athletes are certainly not helping either, the best performing athletes are trying and living in Europe so don't give sponsors coverage. Same problems in these minor sports are going to battle. Although there seems to be a change in MTB with teams giving the up and coming athletes a chance and encouraging them to do XCO. Velolife, Kargo and ASG seem to be doing great work.we did get a bronze at london 2012..not too shabby
Oceana Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I'm not comparing marathon canoeing to XCO, I 'm comparing it to XCM, and my question was why our marathon riders don't compete well at international elite level (apart from Burry of course). The reason why we don't compete at sprint canoeing is because we don't have a spring tradition primarily because of being excluded from the Olympics for so many years. Despite that Bridgette Hartley still picked up a bronze at the Olympics. I think sprint canoeing will get stronger now that the athletes can aim for Olympic medals.
kosmonooit Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Surely XCO mtb racing is the top of the sport, then as one grows older and wider, you move on to Marathons. Its the young ones who can give it those short, sharp bursts of energy and turns of speed. This is evident if we look at who's who in the UCI XCO circus, where the Swiss are so dominant. Why? Because its apparently so big at a school level. So that should be the focus here.
Dubber Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) ,'I think the point of concern is more to do with why in SA we suck so terribly at XCO. XCO's restrictions are global, yet here it translates to poor performances. Why?' .putting my flame suite on... But it's not just XCO that we 'suck at' is it? Look at the results of Attakwas: Only one Saffa in the top 5 (well done Erik!). And the next 3 saffa's are about 20 minutes off the pace.So even though there is an explosion in the number of XM events, it doesn't correlate to the qulity of the riders. I'm not trying to disrespect our riders, but what I'm trying to say is that by simply increasing the number of XCO events won't neccessarily improve the quality of the riders. (But it can't hurt). EDIT: I see Oceana raised this point already. Too quick for me :-) Edited January 21, 2014 by Dubber
leona Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 id be interested to know what the entries would be like if xco because more popular in terms of numbers of events. I'm english and we don't have any marathon races at all bar the nationals. just 1 single marathon race because of byway laws meaning you cant race on public rights of way. yes there are organised 'marathons' but they aren't races.I've only raced xco and cyclocross the last 3 years and I've got to say i don't miss it one bit! its so much harder and you can travel for hours and hours just to race for 1.5 hours. marathon racing is much better value in that sense but i for one appreciate getting sections of single track in a marathon rather than it all being jeep track which i find quite dull.I've been to mankele and was pretty shocked at how technical it was compared to england. for eg.. there was a round of the british national xc series on the olympic course. it was so much more technical than anything people were used to riding that 7 people broke their collar bones and countless more dnf'd due to crashes. it would be great to have more technical xco in england but it would be even better to have marathons..
rouxtjie Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 id be interested to know what the entries would be like if xco because more popular in terms of numbers of events. I'm english and we don't have any marathon races at all bar the nationals. just 1 single marathon race because of byway laws meaning you cant race on public rights of way. yes there are organised 'marathons' but they aren't races.I've only raced xco and cyclocross the last 3 years and I've got to say i don't miss it one bit! its so much harder and you can travel for hours and hours just to race for 1.5 hours. marathon racing is much better value in that sense but i for one appreciate getting sections of single track in a marathon rather than it all being jeep track which i find quite dull.I've been to mankele and was pretty shocked at how technical it was compared to england. for eg.. there was a round of the british national xc series on the olympic course. it was so much more technical than anything people were used to riding that 7 people broke their collar bones and countless more dnf'd due to crashes. it would be great to have more technical xco in england but it would be even better to have marathons..I love that place
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