Iwan Kemp Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Afternoon All, Through luck, fortune, destiny or just plain whatever I haven't been a victim of a bike theft or related mugging. BUTI've had to cut back on riding close to home that will suit me I've had to cut back on riding times I've had to cut back on riding solo.A quick glance at the forums on here and it doesn't take much to see there's been more and more bike theft related threads and it doesn't look like it's going to end or get better soon. Now I'm not the kind off guy who can sit idly by and either live and ride in fear or wait till something happens to me too. So...what are we going to do. Where to next with this? Should we organize a sting op to catch some of these bastards, should we start patrolling danger areas, should we call John Wick...something needs to happen and if it's going to be by us then nothing's going to happen. Ideas?
ChUkKy Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Afternoon All, Through luck, fortune, destiny or just plain whatever I haven't been a victim of a bike theft or related mugging. BUTI've had to cut back on riding close to home that will suit me I've had to cut back on riding times I've had to cut back on riding solo.A quick glance at the forums on here and it doesn't take much to see there's been more and more bike theft related threads and it doesn't look like it's going to end or get better soon. Now I'm not the kind off guy who can sit idly by and either live and ride in fear or wait till something happens to me too. So...what are we going to do. Where to next with this? Should we organize a sting op to catch some of these bastards, should we start patrolling danger areas, should we call John Wick...something needs to happen and if it's going to be by us then nothing's going to happen. Ideas? Our own sting operation, perpetrators caught never to be found again... simpleI wouldnt waste my time on the police, take the bastards in and release them on R500 bail. Faark that.Dispose of the bottom feeding scum
Mikejk Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 If there were to be a well co-ordinated and serious plan to apprehend some of these criminals I , for one , would be available to assist in some or other way. There needs to be confidentiality as some of these individuals are well informed , even through sites like this which have been infiltrated.
Capricorn Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Iwan: if you look at the bigger picture in terms of the judiciary, there's nothing short of DIY vigilantism to mitigate the problem. I deliberately say mitigate because its currently unsolvable due to many many reasons well beyond the means of one or even a few individuals to effectively deal with. Acting within the law constrains the public to very few legal courses of mitigative action: safety in numbers, continuously reporting acts of crime even if you believe its not going to matter, self-defence, general mental prep in terms of what-if/when-if etc etc. You are trying to catch single sardines while the cops, who are limited resource (limited even further into near utter ineffectiveness by a lack of honest, capable police men and women), are trying to catch marauding piranhas and sharks. If bike prices weren't so high, that is, if bikes hit commodity levels of pricing making it easier for everyone to have bikes, it might reduce the levels of demand. But whether the sky high prices are due to unscrupulous marketeering and profiteering by bike sellers, or simply the cost of modern cycling, when something as easily stolen as a bicycle costs around R50k to small car prices, its simple logic that says its a high reward/low risk crime. So to disrupt that equation, you have to either reduce the reward, and/or increase the risk. Legally, risk is in the hands of the judiciary. You could beat a man to death, shoot someone, and only get 5 years in jail, or even less. What you think concerns the judiciary more?Risk increase can also be effected by making a bicycle hard to steal. Out riding, you are pretty defenseless, and often alone or in small yet ineffective groups to really deter a determined criminal. Storage is one area that we can all beef up on, as it will fall within the scope of armouring general home defenses. In terms of high reward, that's a very tough nut to crack as there is massive illicit resale value in something as expensive as a modern bike. A good analogy is the blood diamond trade: it only exists because of the price of legal diamonds and the fact its easy to transport.
Prince Albert Cycles Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Iwan I agree .Every time I read anpost of a theft , likenthis morning , I think that we need to cath the recipient of these bikes .The Police is not interested in our expensive toys we need to take action .Perhaps a fund to get some private investigation going ?
DIPSLICK Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 My2c police you are totally wasting your timeI'm now talking about personal experience with my bike stolen latelyAnd with a high value fraud/theft at my business Both cases came down to the same thing with me giving the police ALL NEEDED info to arrest/recover my losses both cases different police stations both basically told me in no uncertain manner YOU SIR ARE WASTING YOUR TIME THE FRAUD CASE I paid someone to get the number plate checked(police) I got photos , videos high resolution I got 3 other companies that were targeted all their info, I paid to live track the clowns cell phone, called the cops in gave them all the info I had(took me 2 days to get) handed everything to the inspector on a plate he asks me WHAT ELSE U GOT,, and what result do u want out of this because he will be arrested and released on bail R500-R1000 and he will be gone My bike was found I recieved seriously dodge SMS from the police telling me how they "risked our lives BROTHER" Let's meet brother(not at the station)I still think they were involved(assumption) but I have lots pointing in that direction So loooong story short I AGREE SOMETHING MUST BE DONE WHAT.?? I don't know but SAPS IS REALLY NOT AN OPTION beating a guy TO death and getting arrested to leave your family to fend for themselves while you in jail being BABBA BIATCH ALSO for me is no option Lying down is also not an option I WANT TO CONSIDER
Firemeister Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Afternoon All, Through luck, fortune, destiny or just plain whatever I haven't been a victim of a bike theft or related mugging. BUT I've had to cut back on riding close to home that will suit me I've had to cut back on riding timesI've had to cut back on riding solo.A quick glance at the forums on here and it doesn't take much to see there's been more and more bike theft related threads and it doesn't look like it's going to end or get better soon. Now I'm not the kind off guy who can sit idly by and either live and ride in fear or wait till something happens to me too. So...what are we going to do. Where to next with this? Should we organize a sting op to catch some of these bastards, should we start patrolling danger areas, should we call John Wick...something needs to happen and if it's going to be by us then nothing's going to happen. Ideas?Really Sorry to hear.What area did it happen please?
BarHugger Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Our own sting operation, perpetrators caught never to be found again... simpleI wouldnt waste my time on the police, take the bastards in and release them on R500 bail. Faark that.Dispose of the bottom feeding scumBig jumps with massive tabletops.......or maybe just nice sloping berms.
DJR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Hi Iwan Firstly, if I look at reports here on the Hub, it seems to me that most bikes are stolen from homes, garages, storage sheds and places like that. Secondly, bikes are often stolen off bike racks on cars, whether they are locked or not, but always when left unattended, and often in places that were thought "safe". (There was a security camera / there was a security guard) Thirdly, bikes are taken in a hijack situation, mostly from lone riders. There seems to be relatively few of these, compared to the first 2 categories, but this is the one most people fear. So, what am I trying to say? Simply that we HAVE some control over all 3 the above! Like Capricorn said, beef up your home security. Install movement sensors in your garage and link it to your home security system. Cable lock bikes to the wall inside your garage. Don't leave the bolt cutters next to them. Let the dog sleep in the garage? Never store bikes in an outside room or shed. Move bikes into an inside room. Very few bikes are taken from homes with proper security. NEVER leave a bike unattended, locked or not, not even to "just duck into the shop quickly". Not even at races, not in a security area, not with a supposed security guard watching it. It is a pain, but keep it with you. Ride in groups, there is safety in numbers (yes, I know, I hate it too) Carry pepper spray. Avoid dodgy areas. Other than the above? Moan like hell to get your municipality to install cctv, do patrols! Push CSA and PPA to be as vocal about it as possible. The cops, I agree, are useless! So, the idea of a sting is very attractive, but it should be done through a privately hired investigator or company. Someone has to pay for that (want to start raising funds anyone?) and it should ultimately lead to the conviction of the "head" of whatever the gang is that drive the bike thefts. Catching the minnows will just be a waste of money and lead to no improvement in the situation.
DJR Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 O, yes Iwan, before I forget.... another way is to donate your Vipa to me, I have good security. I sleep next to my bikes, and I would love an adopted bike my own....that way bike theft will be reduced.!! Good plan huh?
DIPSLICK Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 DJR I agree with what you say all I can tell you from my experiences WE would have to raise some SERIAAAS cash ,,entry level cops didn't even budge when offered R10k to go fetch someone who you have proof of high value crime R200k plus type of crime
marko35s Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 O, yes Iwan, before I forget.... another way is to donate your Vipa to me, I have good security. I sleep next to my bikes, and I would love an adopted bike my own....that way bike theft will be reduced.!! Good plan huh? I think he sold the Vipa, nice try though
kandui Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Police are ineffective to varying degrees in all countries of the world. There is not one country in the world where police solve all crime and approach each incident with 100% commitment. The reason police are more effective & respected elsewhere is because society is able to distinguish between right and wrong to a greater degree. In other words, more people obey the law and know it's wrong to steal a bike.Less crime, means more resources available to police per crime investigated.I disagree that the price of a bike motivates a criminal to steal a bike. They never realise the full value of a bike when they sell it anyway. They take what they can get. Even when stolen "to order", cars or bikes never sell for the same or more than if a bike is sold legitimately.In Europe, really stuffed up commuter bikes are stolen by the truckload every single day. They are worth very little. A 2015 Specialized Marathon sells for €6400 (about R90000) in Germany, so our prices are not wildly off the charts these days.Value doesn't determine theft frequency, it just pushes an item up the scale of "want to steal". Other than look after our bikes when we store and transport them, I believe there is little else we can do to reduce theft. Bike theft is crime and a part of the bigger problem we have in South Africa. It's about the lack of a moral compass in large parts of our society, plus the knowledge that the consequences , when caught, may not ever be experienced. Lastly. What concerns me most about our crime situation is the willingness of the criminal to apply deadly force to acquire a throwaway item like a mobile phone. A bike may cost more than a phone, but I would also not attach a huge amount of value to my bikes. They are just recreational tools and not worth dying for. In a hijack situation I'd be more than wiling to hand over the bike, but the criminal may still decide to pull the trigger or plunge a knife into me, sommer só. #just saying.
Capricorn Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 However you entitled to disagreed, you did say without reading properly. No one said the perps are aiming for full retail value. that's just an absurd objective. The high prices DO result in a market for illicit goods. The cited example of diamonds is a very good one. Another argument is the call to legalize hard drugs to drop the bottom out of the resale margin borne of the fact its illegal. Bikes are of course not illegal. I deliberately avoided theft of cars and their resale values because the risk reward equation is not the same. Bikes represent a massive reward versus the risk. It might have been the meal ticket of tik junkies, but it also represents a market for unscrupulous bike shops (that place out in the southern suburbs is a prime example). What value you place on something is irrelevant. It's the potential resale value in the mind of the perp, and it starts with the sticker price. You are agueing the same logic when you bring up the topic of cellphones. Again, retail pricing + low risk theft results in a booming illicit resale market. Its delusional to believe the price of goods doesn't drive criminal tendencies.
DIPSLICK Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 However you entitled to disagreed, you did say without reading properly. No one said the perps are aiming for full retail value. that's just an absurd objective. The high prices DO result in a market for illicit goods. The cited example of diamonds is a very good one. Another argument is the call to legalize hard drugs to drop the bottom out of the resale margin borne of the fact its illegal. Bikes are of course not illegal. I deliberately avoided theft of cars and their resale values because the risk reward equation is not the same. Bikes represent a massive reward versus the risk. It might have been the meal ticket of tik junkies, but it also represents a market for unscrupulous bike shops (that place out in the southern suburbs is a prime example). What value you place on something is irrelevant. It's the potential resale value in the mind of the perp, and it starts with the sticker price. You are agueing the same logic when you bring up the topic of cellphones. Again, retail pricing + low risk theft results in a booming illicit resale market. Its delusional to believe the price of goods doesn't drive criminal tendencies.The "gent" who had my bike said he paid 2GORILLAS FOR IT So 100% we talking about guys who will shoot you 6 times for a cell phone they get paid R200 for
Rocket-Boy Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Iwan: if you look at the bigger picture in terms of the judiciary, there's nothing short of DIY vigilantism to mitigate the problem. I deliberately say mitigate because its currently unsolvable due to many many reasons well beyond the means of one or even a few individuals to effectively deal with. Acting within the law constrains the public to very few legal courses of mitigative action: safety in numbers, continuously reporting acts of crime even if you believe its not going to matter, self-defence, general mental prep in terms of what-if/when-if etc etc. You are trying to catch single sardines while the cops, who are limited resource (limited even further into near utter ineffectiveness by a lack of honest, capable police men and women), are trying to catch marauding piranhas and sharks. If bike prices weren't so high, that is, if bikes hit commodity levels of pricing making it easier for everyone to have bikes, it might reduce the levels of demand. But whether the sky high prices are due to unscrupulous marketeering and profiteering by bike sellers, or simply the cost of modern cycling, when something as easily stolen as a bicycle costs around R50k to small car prices, its simple logic that says its a high reward/low risk crime. So to disrupt that equation, you have to either reduce the reward, and/or increase the risk. Legally, risk is in the hands of the judiciary. You could beat a man to death, shoot someone, and only get 5 years in jail, or even less. What you think concerns the judiciary more?Risk increase can also be effected by making a bicycle hard to steal. Out riding, you are pretty defenseless, and often alone or in small yet ineffective groups to really deter a determined criminal. Storage is one area that we can all beef up on, as it will fall within the scope of armouring general home defenses. In terms of high reward, that's a very tough nut to crack as there is massive illicit resale value in something as expensive as a modern bike. A good analogy is the blood diamond trade: it only exists because of the price of legal diamonds and the fact its easy to transport.Making bycicles a commodity wouldnt change anything. SA has one of the highest cellphone ratios vs population in the world and phones are still stolen every day.
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