Frosty Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 VA bunch Ride for sight - Finish with front guys292NP (3.7w/kg)30sec - 562 - 7.11min - 501 - 6.310min 374 - 4.7 It was a tough race with the wind.......And Mr. Richard Baxter with his pro legs made is a bit harder up front than usual. .Impressive numbers there for Sunday.Clearly VB was a little more relaxed until the climb leaving Heidelberg, then the attacks came. On the racing note.Route knowledge (and weather conditions) helps a LOT!You have to know where it is going to get hard and where is what going to happen.R4S was a clear example of that.Couldn't agree more. Mental attitude also helps - telling yourself that you'll get over the climb with the front guys. Give up in your mind and you've lost more than half the battle. Guess that comes with experience - if you aren't there mixing it with the top guys, you'll never know when and where.
Zatek Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I’m currently 31 years old, and a year or two back I was very much a social cyclist, typically riding out of C group. Since then I have started to train a bit harder and regularly and have made reasonable and steady improvements into open B and then A bunches at races. Late last year I decided to get a racing license and have started to be seeded and race with the sub-vets groups (“VA”) – 2 races so far. I have found it quite an interesting experience particularly changing from a “ride” in the open group (no real attacks or tactics) to speak of to an actual race in the vets bunch. I realise from past experience in moving up bunches that it takes time to adapt. My goal in the short term is to get to 90-95% of the race distance with the main vets group and hope to improve further from there once I am achieving this regularly. I managed this for one of the races I competed in where I was dropped in last 5km but not in the other where I was dropped just past the halfway point. What I seem to be picking up is that achieving my goal seems to be at least about as much about “racing smart” as it does about simply having the raw ability and fitness to ride in this group and so I am really keen to learn from those that are willing to give me some advice and the tips and the tricks. So far the conclusions that I can make - I am generally comfortable with the pace of the group- However, there seem to be 4 or 5 critical moments within the ride where there is a rapid change in pace within the group and if I do not anticipate correctly, I can easily get caught out and dropped. If I am lucky when I get caught out and dropped for a moment the groups pace slows and am able to ride back on and then comfortable again for the next few km. This leads me to think that it is just about being able to vasbyt that extra 5% that is the difference between being dropped vs not.- The moments I seem to be struggling with seem to be more on slight downhills and/or windy sections when the pace is picked up and peloton gets strung out – what this seems to tell me is that I am missing a trick in how to position myself in the group in such situations and/or my absolute power is a bit on the low side (given that I feel more comfortable within the group when the road is slightly uphill seems to suggest to me watts per kilogram is perhaps ok). So my questions:- For the hubbers that are seasoned racing vets (or racing elites) or the hubbers that have made a similar transition to what I am trying to make – what tips and advice do you have? What are the key mistakes to avoid? What have been your experiences?- Could anybody give me some insight by looking into their own power files what average power, normalised power (in absolute watts and watts per kilogram) that you believe would be necessary to sustain to be able to comfortably stay with the VA group? This would give me a something to work towards in training.- Here are some power numbers that I took out from three most recent races (note these are numbers from the races, they are not reflective of maximum efforts to exhaustion which would obviously be higher): 94.7 16 November 2014 – C Group, (managed to stay with front of group to last 5km)The Fast One, 25 Jan 2015, (VA managed to stay with group to last 5km)Ride for Sight, 15 February 2015 (VA dropped just past halfway)Average Power177w (2.46w/kg)177w (2.53w/kg)178w (2.54w/kg)Normalised Power236w (3.28w/kg)227w (3.24w/kg)212w (3.03w/kg)30 second peak avg power429w (5.96w/kg)468w (6.69w/kg)474w (6.77w/kg)1 minute peak avg power387w (5.38w/kg)388w (5.54w/kg)370w (5.29w/kg)3 minute peak avg power325w (4.51w/kg)284w (4.06w/kg)280w (4.00w/kg)20 minute peak avg power222w (3.08w/kg)207w (2.96w/kg)220w (3.14w/kg)According to your numbers I must race in Vets as well.FTP 310W (3.41)20min Threshold P 323WVO2max power 340W (3.86)
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Welcome to VA and well done on your first two performances.Also, on sections where the pace drops, please feel free to do a turn on the front. There are far too many wheel-suckers in VAs... Particularly some Cycle Lab riders who will slam on the breaks when the get to the front of an echelon
'Dale Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Impressive numbers there for Sunday.Clearly VB was a little more relaxed until the climb leaving Heidelberg, then the attacks came. Couldn't agree more. Mental attitude also helps - telling yourself that you'll get over the climb with the front guys. Give up in your mind and you've lost more than half the battle. Guess that comes with experience - if you aren't there mixing it with the top guys, you'll never know when and where. Yes, yes, yes Mental toughness: Learn from your failures (getting dropped, analyse data, analyse the situation)Be patient with your performance gains (it takes time and effort to improve, there is no magic just hard work)Believe, believe, believe. And positioning in the bunch in potential race changing zones (before a big climb; out of the wind, guttering opportunities, etc.)
Jensie Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Know the route. When climbs approach make sure you are in front of 10% of bunch. When they attack or go hard you don't get dead wheels that often and if in trouble most of the times you will drift back and as the climb finishes you will still be in the back of the bunch. Another interesting thing is the most attacks will not last more than 3-4minutes. Pun on most!!! not always. Save yourself for the last 20km. Usually all hell breaks lose then. Good Luck
Paulst12 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 You will soon learn who the main protagonists are in the bunch.... watch them closely. If its early in the race and they are breaking like race horses from the gate, generally you dont need to chase ever one, unless you see a couple of them going across. Then you better be ready and able to get to that break pronto. Also the idea of Vets racing is to kill the legs of the bunch hence the breaks and the frequancy, so the fitter you are from a combination of long rides and interval training, the better you will fair. You will also find that if the wind is blowing, that the race will get "guttered" almost immediately. Thats where the long distance rides will help, because the pace line will be unrelentant. It will be like TT against 80 other blokes. The one possible help here will be to sit second or third wheel in the group. they are the only guys who may have some respite. I must agree with JCZA that can ride with Complete Cyclists on Tues & Thurs and can stay with them, then you can race VA.So in summary... do more training (train 150km if you are racing 100km), and mix it with interval training (50km of race pace) to meet the breaks. Otherwise good luck, and stick to it.... its a whole lot of fun... better than the fun groups by far!!
Wez-O Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 You will soon learn who the main protagonists are in the bunch.... watch them closely. If its early in the race and they are breaking like race horses from the gate, generally you dont need to chase ever one, unless you see a couple of them going across. Then you better be ready and able to get to that break pronto. Also the idea of Vets racing is to kill the legs of the bunch hence the breaks and the frequancy, so the fitter you are from a combination of long rides and interval training, the better you will fair. You will also find that if the wind is blowing, that the race will get "guttered" almost immediately. Thats where the long distance rides will help, because the pace line will be unrelentant. It will be like TT against 80 other blokes. The one possible help here will be to sit second or third wheel in the group. they are the only guys who may have some respite. I must agree with JCZA that can ride with Complete Cyclists on Tues & Thurs and can stay with them, then you can race VA. So in summary... do more training (train 150km if you are racing 100km), and mix it with interval training (50km of race pace) to meet the breaks. Otherwise good luck, and stick to it.... its a whole lot of fun... better than the fun groups by far!!Great advice right here!
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Interval training. Thanks i do currently do a mix of endurance and hard interval training (two interval sessions per week). This has been a major contributor to gains made so far - so excellent advice.
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Wow...this is exactly how I feel. I have also just made the jump to VA after about 8 months of cycling and it has been an eye-opening experience. For me personally, I have no issues sticking on the flats, downhills and slight uphills. It is when the gradient really spikes that I just cannot hold on. Something I have noticed...is that just before a climb there is a descent/flat...it is on the decent/flat that I find VA applies the breaks, stopping momentum and putting the ball in the mountain goats court. I am generally too far back or not mentally prepared to attack the climb and get dropped. Looking at your numbers - they do seem slightly low - I currently weigh in at 78kg race weight, whereas you come in at 72kg. My average power is just over 3w/kg - that said there is still more training that I need to do and I have let things slip since the 947. Normalised power would be higher. Things I plan to work on or implement: * Being closer to the front as opposed to the back of the group...* Proper supplementation both before and during the race - I have struggled with cramps in the past 2 races (Berge en Dale and R4S). I now take Magnesium supplements during the week, have a banana protein/carb shake before the race and make sure I drink enough during the race.* Spending more time in the saddle - currently I do not train enough...sometimes as little as 3 hours a week! * Saving up and getting an IDT - have my eye set on a KickR.* Removing Heart Rate from my Garmin dash - I sometimes find if I look down and I am at my max heart rate, I do not push harder even though there is more in the tank. Out of interest my max heart rate is slowly increasing, which is great to see! My minimum is currently at 40bpm, with a max of 176bpm.* Supplementing at the right time - I have noticed that the group generally supplements together (gu's, drinks etc.) and I try to be observant and supplement at the same time. I think this more comes down to experience for that race as they know where the big climbs are and when to supplement. Also the last thing you want is to be opening your gu and there is an attack...* And lastly, I am working towards a 74kg race weight with a body fat percentage of 8%... Thanks flyingscot, its really good to know that i am not the only one. Many of the points you mentioned i have thought of e.g. trying to stay near the front of the bunch but i had not thought of some e.g. placing importance on observation of others eating and drinking habits - will add this to my list.
Nibali Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Guttering is when the group uses the wind and string theory to split the group right? String theory as in spread the group into a long line and SNAP... Thanks for the tips mense, I'll keep them in mind for the "August"
Broker Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Any recommendations of such a coach in Johannesburg? I am assuming this can be done online/over the phone so no need to see them in person every week? Get in touch with Stefan at Cyclesuccess. I think he's also racing in VA's and did great things for me as far as coaching is concerned. PM me for his contact details
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Consider getting a coach not only for the training, they often will be able to give you a pre breifing of races and where likely attacks will occur From a training perspective I am currently attending classes at cadence cycling and very happy with service they have offered to date and very happy with gains. Will investigate whether somebody is prepared to coach me on the softer/tactical skills. Thanks for the suggestion,
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 VA bunch Ride for sight - Finish with front guys292NP (3.7w/kg)30sec - 562 - 7.11min - 501 - 6.310min 374 - 4.7 It was a tough race with the wind.......And Mr. Richard Baxter with his pro legs made is a bit harder up front than usual. VB Bunch 94.7NP 336 - 4.3830s - 631 - 8.231min -541 - 7.0610min - 390 - 5 Crazy numbers at the 94.7 but we broke away from the gun and with only 5 guys in the break each one of us had to work very hard. On the racing note.Route knowledge helps a LOT!You have to know where it is going to get hard and where is what going to happen.R4S was a clear example of that. If you sit in front of the bunch (top 15) then you won't be caught out if and when the pace goes hard.....and someone popping in the gutter is less of an issue...... Good luck and welcome to the VA bunch! Thanks so much for sharing this info spinnekop that is extremely useful and enlightening information. Clearly based on those numbers there is a long long way to go be even semi-competitive but gives something to work towards. The scariest number to me is the 10 min one! At this stage though my goal is just not to get dropped. Thanks for your insight as always.
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 AVOIDChasing down every attack and burn those matches.Starting with cold legs.Overtraining, allow ample rest days. DEFINITELYWarm upTrain cresting a climb with sheer follow-through until 50 metres after itShare focus between endurance and high-intensity trainingThanks will note these all down on my list.
Ryinc Posted February 19, 2015 Author Posted February 19, 2015 Scary part is you have these guys in a racing bunch! Thought a VA racer should/will have the ability to have the basic experience of racing. Not a personal attack to the poster but these basic things you learn from normal fun ride "racing" No offence taken, but in my experience the dynamic is totally different, So unfortunately have not learned the skills - which is why i am trying to learn fast track learning by asking questions here.
Frosty Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Guttering is when the group uses the wind and string theory to split the group right? String theory as in spread the group into a long line and SNAP... Thanks for the tips mense, I'll keep them in mind for the "August" Hope this explains where the gutter starts... If you can't ride as fast as the guy in front of you, and a gap opens (dead wheel), then you get dropped.If you can ride, then get dropped, catch up when the group slows down, and get dropped the next time it happens, that the elastic stretching, until it snaps (when you can't get back to the group again.
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