epic women's race not up to scratch - Gunn-Rita

[slabs]

What you are missing is that she is making a clever argument for next year. It seems she scouted the event this year and would like a serious challenge next year. Being a seasoned and pedigreed pro she would like any advantage she can get or at least make sure your competitors do not have any unjust advantage.

[Gerry Hattrick]

That's because they sit in bunches of 100+ riders and wait for the sprint. I didn't see the winning ladies team sitting in the mens' slip at any stage during the (limited) coverage? This type of race is completely different race from a quick 2:45 dash, sitting slip all the way and sprinting for glory. No comparison...

Women aren't allowed to draft men's teams at the Epic

[Andrew_ew]

That's because they sit in bunches of 100+ riders and wait for the sprint. I didn't see the winning ladies team sitting in the mens' slip at any stage during the (limited) coverage? This type of race is completely different race from a quick 2:45 dash, sitting slip all the way and sprinting for glory. No comparison...

 

Don't let our local ladies hear you - they are a quick bunch and generally do some of the work - which is more than I can say for a lot of the vets men who love the tactic you mentioned. Funny how you always see people in the sprint whom you haven't seen since the start.

 

Ariane and Annika were 29th overall on the first day. It might not just be about sitting slip but also about being motivated and wanting to keep up - in a race like the Epic (which I have never done) I can only imagine how big a factor the psychological aspect must be.

[sias]

Women aren't allowed to draft men's teams at the Epic

 So they should not have an advantage then?

[GLuvsMtb]

There usually is a gap between seeded groups. I don't know if there was a time gap between groups at the Epic.

 

The point was not the time difference between start groups being the advantage but the composition of the start group. Elite women in local road races generally have faster times when they race with the licensed vets men (i.e. either the men pull them or they race harder to show the men a thing or two (which they do)!) compared to when they race in a woman's only group.

 

Having faster riders in front of you must be more of an advantage than riders of equal ability around you. In mtb'ing having technically proficient riders in front of you showing you the good lines is also a big advantage.

I'm not disputing that there is an advantage, but it is not as profound as she makes it out to be. The question is whether the leading ladies "earned" the advantage or not? And the same argument could be carried to the mixed teams (stiffer competition there if you ask me), masters and grand masters competitions. The only anomaly for me is that the UCI pro's get a free ride in A batch. The non-pros are subjected to the same rules for the rest of the race when it comes to testing for illegal substances, being more than 2 minutes apart, leaving the course etc. why not here too? 

[sias]

Don't let our local ladies hear you - they are a quick bunch and generally do some of the work - which is more than I can say for a lot of the vets men who love the tactic you mentioned. 

 

Things must have changed then since I rode Vets' road races 8 years ago 

[Andrew_ew]

I'm not disputing that there is an advantage, but it is not as profound as she makes it out to be. The question is whether the leading ladies "earned" the advantage or not? And the same argument could be carried to the mixed teams (stiffer competition there if you ask me), masters and grand masters competitions. The only anomaly for me is that the UCI pro's get a free ride in A batch. The non-pros are subjected to the same rules for the rest of the race when it comes to testing for illegal substances, being more than 2 minutes apart, leaving the course etc. why not here too? 

 

I am not sure how big an effect it would be - I don't think it would have made a difference to the top step of the podium - Ariane and Annika were so overwhelmingly superior to their rivals the only difference it could have made was how far behind the rest were.

 

I agree with you there - its a race - the playing field should be level with the same rules for all. It does seem fairer if you are batched according to where you finish the prologue and each subsequent day, irrespective of whether you are a UCI pro or an amateur. The UCI pro's would have a lot of reasons why it should be the way it is no doubt and the race is ultimately built around them. (Paid for by the sponsors and amateurs though.)

 

Would be interesting to hear a response from another woman pro who raced the Epic.

[Batty Boy]

She's upset coz she was outridden and outgunned by the two of the strongest women this competiton has ever seen. Finish en klaar.

[Overlord]

After the prologue Gunn-Rita was 2 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

Stage 1 Water Point 1 it was still about 2 Minutes.

Stage one final standings they where 58 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

 

Stage 2 Gunn-Rita took about 9 minutes longer to get to waterpoint 1 than what it took Ariane and Annika.

It took Gunn-Rita 17 minutes longer to get to waterpoint 2 on Stage 2 compared to Ariane and Annika.

Stage 2 final standings they where 18 minutes down after the penalty that Ariane and Annika received.

 

Stage 3 WP1 Gunn-Rita was 12 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

WP2 Gunn-Rita was 19 minutes down.

Stage 3 final standings Gunn-Rita was 29 minutes down.

 

No matter what she says they got taken to school by the RECM Ladies and that is that. If she came to Scout as she says why the statement?

 

As good as Gunn-Rita is she will struggle to keep up with the RECM Ladies.

For one they have youth on their side. Quicker recovery and being able to ride at a higher tempo for longer.

[shawnvan]

Think there is some point to her argument, although maybe she's overplayed the emotional side a bit -  It does seem unfair that only the top three woman's teams get put in the first bunch and *theoretically* get pulled along by stronger male riders.

 

I get the point that the top teams deserve that advantage, but by the same token an unlucky mechanical could push a team down into 4th by a few seconds and then they are at a disadvantage, perceived or actual, by having to start in a later group. 

 

I say just take the debate out of things and start the top-10 or all pro-ladies teams together. Whether its with men or not.  If the Epic wants to make the women's race equal in prize money and prestige to the men's race, then it needs to make it a RACE.

 

No doubt Anneke and Ariaane still would have schooled all other comers, but at least make the rest of the women's race a contest.  Might then have gotten more than 3s airtime on the highlights.

[Skubarra]

She's upset coz she was outridden and outgunned by the two of the strongest women this competiton has ever seen. Finish en klaar.

 

 

As good as Gunn-Rita is she will struggle to keep up with the RECM Ladies.

For one they have youth on their side. Quicker recovery and being able to ride at a higher tempo for longer.

 

The point of this thread is really not about who was the strongest - no one is disputing that. RECM probably could have won this race from the last group...

 

It is about the whether the format of the seeding is fair which is debatable, what if the strength of the top ladies teams are similar? Would it be an unfair advantage then? 

[GLuvsMtb]

After the prologue Gunn-Rita was 2 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

Stage 1 Water Point 1 it was still about 2 Minutes.

Stage one final standings they where 58 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

 

Stage 2 Gunn-Rita took about 9 minutes longer to get to waterpoint 1 than what it took Ariane and Annika.

It took Gunn-Rita 17 minutes longer to get to waterpoint 2 on Stage 2 compared to Ariane and Annika.

Stage 2 final standings they where 18 minutes down after the penalty that Ariane and Annika received.

 

Stage 3 WP1 Gunn-Rita was 12 minutes down on Ariane and Annika.

WP2 Gunn-Rita was 19 minutes down.

Stage 3 final standings Gunn-Rita was 29 minutes down.

 

No matter what she says they got taken to school by the RECM Ladies and that is that. If she came to Scout as she says why the statement?

 

As good as Gunn-Rita is she will struggle to keep up with the RECM Ladies.

For one they have youth on their side. Quicker recovery and being able to ride at a higher tempo for longer.

You raise some very valid points. The biggest advantage would surely be to have such a good pro team setup off the bike. The same mechanics, masseuses, team manager etc as the winning mens team? None of the other ladies teams had remotely the same setup as these girls. Is it unfair? Surely not as they have the option to do the same.  

[DIPSLICK]

next thread,,,,CAN A LADIES TEAM EVER WIN THE EPIC if they had all the extras the men teams had

[Ratty]

I think a little bit of sour grapes as there was so much hype around her riding the Epic. But she does have some valid points. Huge difference starting in front as well as having strong riders to pull you away from the rest, never mind negotiating slower riders in front of you.

 

They should allow more top women teams to start together like the men. That way we should see better racing as well amongst them.

 

There is a rule that says if the 4th and 5th placed teams are within an hour of the 3rd placed team, they will start in batch A.

[Eldron]

The more I think about it (and read the rules) I think the current system is fair.

 

As per the rules (Swissvan posted them).

 

"If the 4th or 5th place team is within 1 hour of 3rd they get to start in A" so Gunn-Rita should have started in A on Stage 1. They then would have had to lose an HOUR on equal grounds to be pushed back to group B.

 

"On days that feature a women's hotspot 2/6/7 the top 10 women get to start in A" so on stages 2,6 & 7 Gunn Rita should have started in A anyway.

 

Bottom line is they got their (cute) arses handed to them so early and so hard that they were not allowed to start in A (except for stages 2, 6 and 7 where they would have started in A anyway).

 

I think there are enough protective rules in place to allow equal footing until you've been comprehensively dropped and lost time...

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

The more I think about it (and read the rules) I think the current system is fair.

 

As per the rules (Swissvan posted them).

 

"If the 4th or 5th place team is within 1 hour of 3rd they get to start in A" so Gunn-Rita should have started in A on Stage 1. They then would have had to lose an HOUR on equal grounds to be pushed back to group B.

 

"On days that feature a women's hotspot 2/6/7 the top 10 women get to start in A" so on stages 2,6 & 7 Gunn Rita should have started in A anyway.

 

Bottom line is they got their (cute) arses handed to them so early and so hard that they were not allowed to start in A (except for stages 2, 6 and 7 where they would have started in A anyway).

 

I think there are enough protective rules in place to allow equal footing until you've been comprehensively dropped and lost time...

and from what I see, her partner dropped out early, so in st 6 & 7 she wasn't allowed to start in batch A cos she was an outcast... Or am I off the mark here?