Immoral or not... you tell me (dilemmas of a shop-owner)

[blondeonabike]

This is one of those situations in life where it does not matter what other people suggest or say......if your conscience has a little niggle...you already know the answer...... The only "moral dilemma" people have in life is when they know what is the right thing to do, but are looking for a way to get around it. 

 

All the best to the OP.  Follow your heart.

[Raf]

This one is easy. Mr Bike Shop own can decline to process any of such claims
No, this does not happen. Instead the shop does the deal & grows a conscience

As business ethics goes, you the owner / operator, you are well within your RESPONSIBILITY to report this. This is not a platform for law advice

So hears my pespective.... stop being a Capitalist to do every deal that come your way and then go to a Media platform to rally support against the guy who's crooking the system when you realizing you are also at fault
After all, you are also benefiting here

[IH8MUD]

 "To have a moral grey, it means you already know the moral black and the moral white."

 

Basically what everyone says. 

[Ozzie NL]

You have a legal and moral obligation to report this to the insurance company involved in the replacement of the bits. If you do not, you are implicated in the fraudulent activity itself, and you will be prosecuted as such... 

 

There is no moral dilemma here.

 

Agree in principal but do think that is much easier to say from a position where you are not in the hyper competitive bike market where you have to hold onto every customer you have

[GoLefty!!]

This dilemma is easily solved by a short stem and wide bar

[Maniax]

I think before this thread deteriorates, can the OP bring a conclusion?  What did you do in the end?  Did you facilitate the claims (plural) or did you decline?  Did you report it or not?

 

I like a story (thread in this case) with an ending.

[DIPSLICK]

I think before this thread deteriorates, can the OP bring a conclusion?  What did you do in the end?  Did you facilitate the claims (plural) or did you decline?  Did you report it or not?

 

I like a story (thread in this case) with an ending.

I THINK THE SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES

[HBO]

I quickly scanned through what have been said, and as an insurance broker I think there is a couple of things that bothers me:

 

Firstly, short term insurance and a Manufacturer Warranty are two totally different things. A warranty covers you for a defect/ fault on the product. Insurance covers for an insured peril which usually is a "once-off or sudden" event, like an accident, theft or fire.

 

It is just not possible to claim for the same event/ damage on both the warranty and insurance. The fact that both were successful is really a reason for concern.

let me explain.

 

To claim from your insurance you would need to state the cause for the damage. You can't say "don't know"/ "not sure"/ "unknown". To proof what you are saying is true, the insurer would request a "damage report" from a reputable LBS- it can't be your buddy that knows some things about bikes- and a quotation to repair/ replace. They would also request a photo and other supporting docs/ evidence depending on the circumstances and value of the claim. Each claim has its own merits.

 

Now, if the LBS states on the report that the damage is due to an accident, then the insurance claim would be successful and the warranty claim would be repudiated because the damage is not due to a product/ manufacturing error/ defect/ fault. And "visa versa" of course.

 

I would assume that to claim against a warranty a similar process would be followed. The manufacturer would request to inspect the bike themselves or since the LBS is a reputable/ approved dealer of its products, would trust the report of the LBS.

I would assume that the LBS completes a claim form for the manufacturer and provide some sort of proof.(the cracked/ broken frame perhaps?)

 

In both scenarios the manufacturer would like to have the damage frame back and likewise the insurer. This is common knowledge.

 

What I'm getting at is that for this claim to be successful at both parties, a) the LBS must have provided two different damage reports; b) the client lied on his claim form; c) the LBS lied on their claim form to the manufacturer; or d) all of the above.

 

To quote the OP: "..claims from insurance, claim is successfull. He also claims ito warranty - claim is also successful.

 

In other words, fraud has already been committed. Period

 

Lets go further; if the frame breaks (just sommer) then surely this would be something that is covered by a warranty. If it was due to a fall, then there would be evidence on the bike and/ or rider to support this and surely it will be covered by the insurer (well, not everyone indemnifies you when you fall).

 

What bothers me about this is that if the frame just braked, then surely there can't be damage to the derailleurs, shifters, chain, cassette, tyres (I mean really??, TYRES???). The only reason that this could have been damage is either an accident or fall, and then it is ONLY an insurance claim. This is not rocket science.

 

The OP said; "cause unknown but probably due to a fall". Like I said if it was a fall, then there would be supporting evidence. For starters the client would be able to tell you. "listen Naas, I fell". If the client says he doesn't know why the frame braked, then chances are pretty good he didn't fell. To determine this you can ask a really simple question, "Mr. Client did you perhaps fell with the bike?" I mean, c'mon?? Is it just me that smell a rat.

 

What actually bothers me the most is that a mature grown business man would post something like this on a public forum like this.

Naas Vermaak, I don't know you and have no "axe to grind" with you, but with all due respect, I really don't want to do business with you.

[HBO]

To add further fuel to this, the fact that there is contradicting posts by the OP is clearly evidence of a guilty guy back-tracking. I'm in the insurance industry for 18 years and unfortunately had my fait share of fraudulent claims.

 

In the OP he clearly stated that both claims were successful, then in the later posts, all of a sudden it hasn't been processed yet? 

 

I mean, how can a claim be successful and then later still be processed? The math doesn't add up.

 

And then there is shifting the blame: "..just hate the position educated and people seemingly to know better are putting me in.."

 

Nuff said.

[Bloukrans]

I quickly scanned through what have been said, and as an insurance broker I think there is a couple of things that bothers me:

 

Firstly, short term insurance and a Manufacturer Warranty are two totally different things. A warranty covers you for a defect/ fault on the product. Insurance covers for an insured peril which usually is a "once-off or sudden" event, like an accident, theft or fire.

 

It is just not possible to claim for the same event/ damage on both the warranty and insurance. The fact that both were successful is really a reason for concern.

let me explain.

 

To claim from your insurance you would need to state the cause for the damage. You can't say "don't know"/ "not sure"/ "unknown". To proof what you are saying is true, the insurer would request a "damage report" from a reputable LBS- it can't be your buddy that knows some things about bikes- and a quotation to repair/ replace. They would also request a photo and other supporting docs/ evidence depending on the circumstances and value of the claim. Each claim has its own merits.

 

Now, if the LBS states on the report that the damage is due to an accident, then the insurance claim would be successful and the warranty claim would be repudiated because the damage is not due to a product/ manufacturing error/ defect/ fault. And "visa versa" of course.

 

I would assume that to claim against a warranty a similar process would be followed. The manufacturer would request to inspect the bike themselves or since the LBS is a reputable/ approved dealer of its products, would trust the report of the LBS.

I would assume that the LBS completes a claim form for the manufacturer and provide some sort of proof.(the cracked/ broken frame perhaps?)

 

In both scenarios the manufacturer would like to have the damage frame back and likewise the insurer. This is common knowledge.

 

What I'm getting at is that for this claim to be successful at both parties, a) the LBS must have provided two different damage reports; b) the client lied on his claim form; c) the LBS lied on their claim form to the manufacturer; or d) all of the above.

 

To quote the OP: "..claims from insurance, claim is successfull. He also claims ito warranty - claim is also successful.

 

In other words, fraud has already been committed. Period

 

Lets go further; if the frame breaks (just sommer) then surely this would be something that is covered by a warranty. If it was due to a fall, then there would be evidence on the bike and/ or rider to support this and surely it will be covered by the insurer (well, not everyone indemnifies you when you fall).

 

What bothers me about this is that if the frame just braked, then surely there can't be damage to the derailleurs, shifters, chain, cassette, tyres (I mean really??, TYRES???). The only reason that this could have been damage is either an accident or fall, and then it is ONLY an insurance claim. This is not rocket science.

 

The OP said; "cause unknown but probably due to a fall". Like I said if it was a fall, then there would be supporting evidence. For starters the client would be able to tell you. "listen Naas, I fell". If the client says he doesn't know why the frame braked, then chances are pretty good he didn't fell. To determine this you can ask a really simple question, "Mr. Client did you perhaps fell with the bike?" I mean, c'mon?? Is it just me that smell a rat.

 

What actually bothers me the most is that a mature grown business man would post something like this on a public forum like this.

Naas Vermaak, I don't know you and have no "axe to grind" with you, but with all due respect, I really don't want to do business with you.

How does a frame brake?    OK grappie

 

Thanks for the post - makes sense to me

[HBO]

How does a frame brake?    OK grappie

 

 

 

  Can I get back to you on this?

[Cube120]

Insurance fraud is causing most honest people's premiums to increase all the time.People like this need to be exposed to protect not only you as a shopowner,but the rest of the public as well.He is aware of exactly what he is doing and knows it is wrong.I was asked to provide proof from another insurer that I had not submitted another claim for the same item recently.Although this incident is slightly different as the manufacturer is involved here,But I believe you have a moral obligation.

[HBO]

Insurance fraud is causing most honest people's premiums to increase all the time.People like this need to be exposed to protect not only you as a shopowner,but the rest of the public as well.He is aware of exactly what he is doing and knows it is wrong.I was asked to provide proof from another insurer that I had not submitted another claim for the same item recently.Although this incident is slightly different as the manufacturer is involved here,But I believe you have a moral obligation.

 

One of the standard questions the insurers ask when you claim is, "is the lost or damage property insured under any other policy or agreement"?

 

He obviously answered "NO".

[SAGecko]

 

Are we getting screwed by insurance companies because clients screwed them 

 

 

Yes.

 

And the more the company screws the client, the harder the client screws the insurance company the deeper the insurance company screws the client the further the client screws the insura........ you get the picture.

[EmptyB]

Client has a one year old bike, frame breaks(cause unknown but probably due to fall), claims from insurance, claim is successfull. He also claims ito warranty - claim is successful. Also requested to add other items to the claim that could have been damaged but hardly warrants a claim(..I am uncomfortable with the state of affairs) but we push ahead(client is the boss), shifters and derailleurs and chain and cassette, tyres, almost a new bike now.

 

Many stories like the one above....

 

Are we getting screwed by insurance companies because clients screwed them or is it the other way round?

 

Is it right to get compensated twice for the same thing? To add on to the list of breakages and in the end, after being compensated more than fully still insist on getting the old parts and keep on using it for months to come...

 

But , like I said the client is the boss...

 

Theft....simple as that. Call it fraud too if you like.

 

The knock on effect is obvious.

[Skinnyone]

On the other hand...I think Naas has some explaining to do...