Discovery Health - Vitality & Team Vitality plus everything else you need to know

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

And your point is? The moral high ground that we must play by the rules even though Vitality created the game, set the rules, got people to buy into the game... then changed the rules, which is detramental to some financially (mainly through their ignorance) but mostly because of the change in rules... sorry, doesnt wash, Vitality should have done their homework first before the introduction as they have certainly not played by their own rules!

 

Yet most are now tamporing with results legally to give skewed data... which is not actually ALL that they have done

No, YOU should have done your homework before buying into something which was at all times sold as a behavioural analytics product, SUBJECT TO CHANGE. 

 

You, and the others following your lead, are railing against disco for their change. Yet in order to get your points you are doing EXACTLY the thing that forced them into the change in the first place. As if their change of the metrics somehow justifies your falsification of efforts. It doesn't. It's not a moral "high ground" either - it's simple ethics. You feel as if Discovery's changing the goalposts (which, btw - they always said they were going to do) somehow makes your moral failings okay. It doesn't. 

 

It is also only detrimental from a financial standpoint to those who bought watches. People who should have read the terms and conditions attached to the watch subsidy, and didn't realise that Disco will only subsidise the payment if you got to goals which they set and were contractually able to alter as more info came in. And guess what? People like you, who jippo the system, are the reason that the metrics have changed. You are part of the problem. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

 

 

Vitality UK have a completely different point system and it seems to work there... one wonders why Vitality SA are trying to reinvent the wheel and not utilised the same system and points award.

 

https://www.pruhealth.co.uk/Vitality/partners/Starbucks

 

There you get differing points for time and %MHR,  the longer the activity, the lower the %MHR

 

It also not perfect from what I can see as any activity over 60 mins (no matter what the duration) only gets awarded the same as a gym visit.... but at least they try to address and understand the physicality of trying to maintain an un-achievable %MRH over a longer training activity

Also - the weekly points requirement there is 9 points. That's 1 visit to gym or 1 60 min effort at 600kcal per hour or 60% of MHR. If you're on Gold or Diamond, you don't have to do anything - you just get a free drink every week.

 

The points system here is far more advanced, and whilst I agree that it should be better tiered to reflect the longer times and lower HR's the longer you go, it's due to direct manipulation and falsification of data that the metrics have been moved this far from what they were initially. 

[Thor Buttox]

No, YOU should have done your homework before buying into something which was at all times sold as a behavioural analytics product, SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

 

You, and the others following your lead, are railing against disco for their change. Yet in order to get your points you are doing EXACTLY the thing that forced them into the change in the first place. As if their change of the metrics somehow justifies your falsification of efforts. It doesn't. It's not a moral "high ground" either - it's simple ethics. You feel as if Discovery's changing the goalposts (which, btw - they always said they were going to do) somehow makes your moral failings okay. It doesn't.

 

It is also only detrimental from a financial standpoint to those who bought watches. People who should have read the terms and conditions attached to the watch subsidy, and didn't realise that Disco will only subsidise the payment if you got to goals which they set and were contractually able to alter as more info came in. And guess what? People like you, who jippo the system, are the reason that the metrics have changed. You are part of the problem.

While I do not agree with fiddling on someone else's behalf, I am forced to ask the question 'What changes to the T&C's would constitute a material alteration?'. If they bumped everyone's points up to 5000 (say) where noone can meet their goals, I am fairly sure that a savvy legal eagle would have a field day arguing that a client had a reasonable expectation of success when entering a contract for an iPhone (again, just say). At some point there would be such a material difference that a revised offer/acceptance would have to take place.

 

Of course, with a little bit of forethought, communication and uncommon sense they might have saved the hassle by only switching off the entry channels causing gyppoing and then doing a bit of data mining against subsequent data to determine the magnitude of the issue. Just all very poorly thought out.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thor Buttox

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

While I do not agree with fiddling on someone else's behalf, I am forced to ask the question 'What changes to the T&C's would constitute a material alteration?'. If they bumped everyone's points up to 1,500 (say) where noone can meet their goals, I am fairly sure that a savvy legal eagle would have a field day arguing that a client had a reasonable expectation of success when entering a contract for an iPhone (again, just say). At some point there would be such a material difference that a revised offer/acceptance would have to take place.

 

Of course, with a little bit of forethought, communication and uncommon sense they might have saved the hassle by only switching off the entry channels causing gyppoing and then doing a bit of data mining against subsequent data to determine the magnitude of the issue. Just all very poorly thought out.

Given that the contract itself has nothing to do with the cash back portion (subsidy) goals, and only has to do with the 2 year no interest loan arrangement, and only details what % they will debit you for each level of engagement, it'd have to be a change in the levels of engagement ie: A change in the matrix shown on page 2 of the following doc: https://www.discovery.co.za/discovery_coza/web/linked_content/pdfs/vitality/apple_watch/vitality_active_rewards_apple_watch_benefit_guide.pdf

 

A change in the metrics for the goals does not impinge on the validity of the contract, but I suspect one could have a good argument if they changed the soft cap of 1,200 points per week. It still wouldn't affect the contract, as the metrics are not stipulated therein and the t's and c's of the Vitality Active Rewards state that the goals will move with more data. But as you edited (darn you) there would probably have to be a revised offer.

 

At no point in the contract are the metrics / goals discussed. It's just X goals per month & X discount if you meet those goals, and various other cancellation / penalties for non compliance etc. 

 

 

EDIT: Your last point - agreed. My approach would have been different, but I understand why they changed them so drastically. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Myles Mayhew

[shaper]

No, YOU should have done your homework before buying into something which was at all times sold as a behavioural analytics product, SUBJECT TO CHANGE. 

 

You, and the others following your lead, are railing against disco for their change. Yet in order to get your points you are doing EXACTLY the thing that forced them into the change in the first place. As if their change of the metrics somehow justifies your falsification of efforts. It doesn't. It's not a moral "high ground" either - it's simple ethics. You feel as if Discovery's changing the goalposts (which, btw - they always said they were going to do) somehow makes your moral failings okay. It doesn't. 

 

It is also only detrimental from a financial standpoint to those who bought watches. People who should have read the terms and conditions attached to the watch subsidy, and didn't realise that Disco will only subsidise the payment if you got to goals which they set and were contractually able to alter as more info came in. And guess what? People like you, who jippo the system, are the reason that the metrics have changed. You are part of the problem.

 

Firstly, if you used some of your memory you will know I never bought into the apple watch gimmic, am a fenix 3 and android user... you are welcome to go back through the whole thread to verify this... your argument therfore does not stand and further I did not say I AM doing this... I said that it is being done and works and that is FACT.

 

I am therefore not part of the problem as you percieve it... so before assuming and accusing, get your facts right.

 

In the early days of discussion with regard to the watch, there were many querying the merits of it and decided against it as one would need to change phone just to get a watch. We also championed for Vitality to open up to other watches like the fenix... you even highlighted this would never happen as they had signed into a deal with apple!

 

I however do not like people being taken for a ride through the smoke and mirrors that Vitality used with the sales pitch on the watch and the first set of rules that everybody saw as easy to make the goals.... then changed it so that it is not so easy. Yes, more fool them for not reading the small print and only focusing on the gold at the end of the rainbow.

 

Get the system right that works for everyone both those that train and motivates those in the 80%... until then, i will help those who have been put into this predicament.

 

But as to your accusation, I did my homework more thoroughly than most, analysed, dissected and read the small print.. and the financial risk for something I did not need having 2 garmin devices made it a non starter. And I continually do my homework to make sure I get the most out of vitality and discovery (legally)... so if that is me being part of the problem to get the most out of the benefits of a system I have bought into... so be it.

[Thor Buttox]

Given that the contract itself has nothing to do with the cash back portion (subsidy) goals, and only has to do with the 2 year no interest loan arrangement, and only details what % they will debit you for each level of engagement, it'd have to be a change in the levels of engagement ie: A change in the matrix shown on page 2 of the following doc: https://www.discovery.co.za/discovery_coza/web/linked_content/pdfs/vitality/apple_watch/vitality_active_rewards_apple_watch_benefit_guide.pdf

 

A change in the metrics for the goals does not impinge on the validity of the contract, but I suspect one could have a good argument if they changed the soft cap of 1,200 points per week. It still wouldn't affect the contract, as the metrics are not stipulated therein and the t's and c's of the Vitality Active Rewards state that the goals will move with more data.

 

EDIT: Your last point - agreed. My approach would have been different, but I understand why they changed them so drastically.

Hmmm... You have a point in terms of the validity of the contract itself and the loan component, but I don't think the soft cap is really the problem in itself.

 

Effectively, they are subsidising/paying you for 'services rendered'. If they deny you the ability to render those services, the contract stipulations must/should have some ability to withdraw. Eg if you are incapacitated like Savage's uncle. Itvs not easy to verbalise it and it's not that clear in my head this late, but I hope you get my drift.

 

Edit: by services rendered I have to specify that per person, that would be very determined by their lofestyle/priorities/time, etc.. It cannot be a generic concept which unfortunately is the cause of all the misery, I think

Edited April 28, 2016 by Thor Buttox

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Firstly, if you used some of your memory you will know I never bought into the apple watch gimmic, am a fenix 3 and android user... you are welcome to go back through the whole thread to verify this... your argument therfore does not stand and further I did not say I AM doing this... I said that it is being done and works and that is FACT.

 

I am therefore not part of the problem as you percieve it... so before assuming and accusing, get your facts right.

 

In that case, I apologise. If you yourself were not doing it, then agreed you are not part of the problem. 

 

I post an awful lot here, as you know - so forgive me for not remembering that you're a fellow F3 user. Personally, far prefer mine to the iWatch. 

 

Look - I get that people are frustrated, but in most cases it's righteous indignation. People who haven't got the watch just complaining because they think they have a right to dictate how a company structures their points on the wellness program. People who have no need to complain, but feel they are entitled to ços they now can't get their smoothies because OMG it's "so hard now"

 

The guys who were doing it to get fit, like Thor's Mrs - those are the people I feel have been disadvantaged, and who are continuing to be disadvantaged not by Discovery, but by people who jip the system. Because what happens when the system is jipped, and by so many? It's changed to reflect that. To reduce the possibility of jippoism. 

 

Also - the guys who have the watch and aren't able to meet the goals anymore - again. Don't blame Disco for changing them. Blame the retards who faked exercise data and steps and tagged their fitbits to their dogs - we have clients who actually admitted doing just that. No joke. It'd be hilarious if it just wasn't so sad.

 

So yeah - sorry for the ramble, and sorry for targeting you when you yourself weren't doing it. Please stop telling people how to circumvent the system (if you are) - it's just making it worse for the people who are doing it legitimately as it corrupts the data. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Hmmm... You have a point in terms of the validity of the contract itself and the loan component, but I don't think the soft cap is really the problem in itself.

 

Effectively, they are subsidising/paying you for 'services rendered'. If they deny you the ability to render those services, the contract stipulations must/should have some ability to withdraw. Eg if you are incapacitated like Savage's uncle. Itvs not easy to verbalise it and it's not that clear in my head this late, but I hope you get my drift.

 

Edit: by services rendered I have to specify that per person, that would be very determined by their lofestyle/priorities/time, etc.. It cannot be a generic concept which unfortunately is the cause of all the misery, I think

I do... The problem is that it's for a physical product, which you are using on a daily basis. You still own it, you are still paying for it, and you went into it knowing that you would be liable for XYZ if you didn't meet the goals. It's almost a harmonious relationship, without actually being one. 

 

So yeah - you can cancel, but you're going to pay because you still decided to buy the thing. CPA still covers this and you won't get your cash back entirely. There's fair devaluation of the item, costs affiliated with re-selling and so on. May as well just sell it. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Myles Mayhew

[Thor Buttox]

In that case, I apologise. If you yourself were not doing it, then agreed you are not part of the problem.

 

I post an awful lot here, as you know - so forgive me for not remembering that you're a fellow F3 user. Personally, far prefer mine to the iWatch.

 

Look - I get that people are frustrated, but in most cases it's righteous indignation. People who haven't got the watch just complaining because they think they have a right to dictate how a company structures their points on the wellness program. People who have no need to complain, but feel they are entitled to ços they now can't get their smoothies because OMG it's "so hard now"

 

The guys who were doing it to get fit, like Thor's Mrs - those are the people I feel have been disadvantaged, and who are continuing to be disadvantaged not by Discovery, but by people who jip the system. Because what happens when the system is jipped, and by so many? It's changed to reflect that. To reduce the possibility of jippoism.

 

Also - the guys who have the watch and aren't able to meet the goals anymore - again. Don't blame Disco for changing them. Blame the retards who faked exercise data and steps and tagged their fitbits to their dogs - we have clients who actually admitted doing just that. No joke. It'd be hilarious if it just wasn't so sad.

 

So yeah - sorry for the ramble, and sorry for targeting you when you yourself weren't doing it. Please stop telling people how to circumvent the system (if you are) - it's just making it worse for the people who are doing it legitimately as it corrupts the data.

That part is totally true. If noone gyppo's and medical bills do come down, costs should come down for everyone if the Company is honest. They will generate more profit and the clients will pay less.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

That part is totally true. If noone gyppo's and medical bills do come down, costs should come down for everyone if the Company is honest. They will generate more profit and the clients will pay less.

EXACTLY. That's the end goal, anyway. To track the direct correlation between increased activity and lower claims. Because those that track their activity are generally more aware of their health, and take more preventative / screening measures to ensure that their health is best preserved. 

 

It also opens up other potential changes and savings on all manner of products, if this can finally be proven. Think of it - which better company to test the data? 200,000 to 300,000 memberships, tracking life claims, disability claims, health claims etc and plotting activity / smoking / etc data along with it - it's an actuary's wet dream. 

[HappyMartin]

Again good points Myles and I have been guilty of complaining without real cause. Don't care for smoothies and no desire to own an IWatch.

 

But I want Vitality to work. That's the thing. I want achievable goals that will provoke me to improve my lifestyle. I want the system to be logical. I want it to help me and inspire me to improve myself and I want to feel the accomplishment of succeeding and and having the achievement recognized. Silly sure. Childish and immature to a degree I know. When as an aging amateur cyclist I can see major flaws in the system then I get disappointed and irritated. It could be amazing. It could be a motivator and training aid. At the moment it's non of those things and nothing Vitality is saying or doing makes me believe they wish to move it in that direction.

[Thor Buttox]

I do... The problem is that it's for a physical product, which you are using on a daily basis. You still own it, you are still paying for it, and you went into it knowing that you would be liable for XYZ if you didn't meet the goals. It's almost a harmonious relationship, without actually being one.  So yeah - you can cancel, but you're going to pay because you still decided to buy the thing. CPA still covers this and you won't get your cash back entirely. There's fair devaluation of the item, costs affiliated with re-selling and so on. May as well just sell it.

 

You may be 100% correct, but it still bites my banana. I am beginning to wonder if 'Discovery' sounds like 'DSTV' for a reason (or only cos it doesn't sound like 'Vodacom'.) The only difference being that I always liked Discovery...

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

So do I, Martin. So do I.

 

It's still motivating me though - I was going to be training this PM, until I remembered I have an assignment due at 12 tomorrow (took me 2 hours to klap, but that's beside the point) 

 

I need another 400 points. I hit the gym on Sunday to swim with my lightie. Nothing since, cos my OH has been super busy with a squash tournament and photo shoots. I now need to do a 90 minute session at 80% of MHR tomorrow to make the cut for this week. Can I do it? Yeah, I can. Am I going to struggle to do it in the gym? Maybe - I'll have to keep an eye on my average and keep it above 150 - not a hassle if I just row & cycle, but a challenge if I do anything else except HIIT stuff like burpees and aggressive weights trainign and running. Will I be dead afterwards? Probably. But that's also part of the fun. Pushing myself. Testing it. If I don't get there, well then meh. I won't have gotten there. But I'll try my darndest to make it work... 

[Thor Buttox]

Again good points Myles and I have been guilty of complaining without real cause. Don't care for smoothies and no desire to own an IWatch.But I want Vitality to work. That's the thing. I want achievable goals that will provoke me to improve my lifestyle. I want the system to be logical. I want it to help me and inspire me to improve myself and I want to feel the accomplishment of succeeding and and having the achievement recognized. Silly sure. Childish and immature to a degree I know. When as an aging amateur cyclist I can see major flaws in the system then I get disappointed and irritated. It could be amazing. It could be a motivator and training aid. At the moment it's non of those things and nothing Vitality is saying or doing makes me believe they wish to move it in that direction.

That's the weird thing. Everyone agrees it was working and working well. But people were cheating. Instead of only stopping cheating they babies the bathwater. The only other conceivable reason to change was that Disco was losing present cash in favour of future gains in health. In which case be honest and gently amend the scale, but alas, now trust has gone.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

You may be 100% correct, but it still bites my banana. I am beginning to wonder if 'Discovery' sounds like 'DSTV' for a reason (or only cos it doesn't sound like 'Vodacom'.) The only difference being that I always liked Discovery...

Oh, it bites me too. Don't get me wrong - I don't LIKE the change, and if it changes any more it may affect how we do business wrt Discovery & vitality and the in-house testing etc. But I am confident that it will be changing for the better in the future. 

 

Overall though, I understand why they did it, and perhaps that tempers my irritation somewhat. 

[shaper]

I hear you Myles, but there are others who bought into the vitality system, the points and the motivation... and not even the apple watch.

 

They however went the tomtom multi sports watch, yet vitality do not and will not recognise the watch as a legitimate recording device and there is no platform for uploading to vitality.

 

The only option was tapriik which is now closed and no amount of corresponding with vitality seems to be able to resolve this... how do you propose to help these with legitimate devices and no way to get the benefits?

 

Vitality changed the goals and have seemingly abandonded them!