A vertical shock is better...

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:24 PM, BaGearA said:

Yet specialized are at the front of the pack in enduro , XC and downhill ......men and women

 

but no more pivots and seat tube mounted shocks are not the best 

Yeti (Richie Rude) Nukeproof (Sam Hill) Yoann Barelli (Giant) would disagree... 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:29 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

Yes they do have the best riders/most money.

erm... yet another falsehood. 

[Serious Panda]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:33 PM, Myles Mayhew said:

None of which are empirically true. A vertical shock position is not demonstrably better than a horizontal one. Less pivots are not demonstrably better than more pivots. A solid rear triangle is not demonstrably better than one with pivot points in it.

 

There are trade-offs in each situation, and the more you investigate the more you realise that each suspension design is an exercise in compromises and the attempt to achieve an end result. 

 

The Silverback had a very clear end result - pedalling performance and stiffness in the rear whilst still being active on the rough stuff. They could have utilized any number of combinations to achieve this end result:

 

A main pivot that locates higher on the seat tube / down tube than the top end of their "ideal" chainring size - this is the most common characteristic in modern suspension designs

Larger pivot bearings - also being used more frequently now

A firmer suspension tune

Solid rear triangle

Progressive shock curve

Horst link with a progressive shock tune

Single Pivot with a progressive shock tune

DW link (also has a solid rear triangle)

 

And and and. 

 

The Silverback is a good design. But it is by no means "the best" 

 

If you believe that, then you've drunk the kool-aid. Properly. 

 

Ok this is not correct at all.

 

It can be scientifically proven and I am yet to see another bike with the same design, a solid rear triangle like on the SB is not just the absence  of the rear pivot, go look closely again at the DW design and Burst design. Not the same at all.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:38 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

Ok this is not correct at all.

Why not? If you convince me with proper data, I will change my tune. 

[Monark]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:38 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

Ok this is not correct at all.

 

It can be scientifically proven and I am yet to see another bike with the same design, a solid rear triangle like on the SB is not just the absence  of the rear pivot, go look closely again at the DW design and Burst design. Not the same at all.

 

If you read his post you would appreciate that he is not saying that he is right, he is explaining why you are incorrect.... there is a difference...  The position of the shock is one ingredient in a very very complicated soup.

 

if this suspension design was not optimal then why are bikes  with a similar setup (being shock placement alone) being ridden to Epic (Some Sauser chap...)  and World champ XC (That Nino character) victories?

[Fisan]

Never a dull moment in a spaz fred 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:51 PM, Monark said:

If you read his post you would appreciate that he is not saying that he is right, he is explaining why you are incorrect.... there is a difference...  The position of the shock is one ingredient in a very very complicated soup.

 

if this suspension design was not optimal then why are bikes  with a similar setup (being shock placement alone) being ridden to Epic (Some Sauser chap...)  and World champ XC (That Nino character) victories?

And it's not even an important one...

[Pure Savage]

Guys, its only a MTB, not a road bike... Nothing to get worked up about, its just for a hobby not a sport.

[Serious Panda]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:51 PM, Monark said:

If you read his post you would appreciate that he is not saying that he is right, he is explaining why you are incorrect.... there is a difference...  The position of the shock is one ingredient in a very very complicated soup.

 

if this suspension design was not optimal then why are bikes  with a similar setup (being shock placement alone) being ridden to Epic (Some Sauser chap...)  and World champ XC (That Nino character) victories?

 

What I`m saying is that for that complicated soup, simplicity is better. The Spaz frame is not as simple as it could be. I say there is a scientific difference, I`m not saying its going to make the difference between winning and losing for 2 different riders.

[BaGearA]

  On 8/15/2016 at 4:59 PM, Pure Savage said:

Guys, its only a MTB, not a road bike... Nothing to get worked up about, its just for a hobby not a sport.

Give this man a Bells       

[Serious Panda]

I`m actually just messing with the Spaz marketing on the hub a bit.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

  On 8/15/2016 at 5:07 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

I`m actually just messing with the Spaz marketing on the hub a bit.

And yet punting SB at every opportunity... I call BS. Hahaha... they're the same. But opposite. Fancy that. 

[DJ Kruger]

  On 8/15/2016 at 3:08 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

A modern design would have the shock mounted vertically with the seat tube.

no it wouldnt.....................

[Serious Panda]

  On 8/15/2016 at 5:14 PM, Myles Mayhew said:

No, that's not what you're saying. You're saying that one design is intrinsically better than all others, due to 2 very specific reasons - Solid rear triangle & shock position.

 

What I'm saying is that you cannot say that. It's not that simple.

 

There may be a demonstrable difference in the stiffness characteristics between the Silverback and, say, a Spaz, due to the solid rear triangle and how it's constructed, but in that solid rear triangle they have (relying on the seatstays to flex during shock compression) they're giving up a bit of sensitivity in the suspension stroke. Something that is important for both ascending technical climbs as well as descending. Incidentally, this design is more or less the same as Giant's STANCE - their BUDGET Trail bike. 

 

If simplicity were the answer to everything, we'd all be riding Oranges or Santa Cruz Butchers. Ultimate simplicity, single pivots with no fuss. Just relying on pivot positioning to get the desired suspension performance.

 

But it's not. The EVIL line of bikes, for all their complication (despite being a single pivot bike) are hailed as one of the best performing bikes on the market. Then the SB5c and SB6c (yeti) also hold the same praise, but perform in a different way to the Evil. 2 very different suspension designs, yet both cream of the crop. Then you have the Spaz enduro - the game changer of the last 4 years, largely hailed as the single bike that changed what a niner could be, and remains one of the stalwarts of the enduro bike field.

 

You're going to have to bring a lot of data to this fight in order to convince us that the SB design is better than anything else - and that's what you're claiming. 

 

Ok that`s like tapping out. You know I cant bring the data but neither can you to prove your point, going for the stalemate. A solid piece of carbon is always better than 1 with a pivot in, even if its just 1 less pivot to service.

[DJ Kruger]

  On 8/15/2016 at 3:55 PM, I act like a pro racer said:

Baaah baah naah naah baaah.

 

 

Yes true its been around. I am comparing this to the modern design of the award winning Silverback Sesta. Vertical shock to remove the need for a re-enforced top tube and a solid rear triangle.

okay then you go and buy a sesta instead of a epic then but i will stick with the epic

[Serious Panda]

  On 8/15/2016 at 5:21 PM, DJ Kruger said:

okay then you go and buy a sesta instead of a epic then but i will stick with the epic

 

Agreed, I`l buy 2 for your 1 Spaz.