Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted August 15, 2016 Share Ok that`s like tapping out. You know I cant bring the data but neither can you to prove your point, going for the stalemate. A solid piece of carbon is always better than 1 with a pivot in, even if its just 1 less pivot to service.Nah bro, the burden of proof is on he who claims something. You're claiming that the SB design is better than anything else. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you. All I'm saying is that it's more complicated than that, and you can't claim it without backing it up with sufficient demonstrable benefits of the one design over EVERY other. And no, it's not that simple, nor is stiffness the be all and end all. Stiffness in and of itself does not translate into a "better design" - especially for a full suspension bicycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Panda Posted August 15, 2016 Share Nah bro, the burden of proof is on he who claims something. You're claiming that the SB design is better than anything else. Therefore, the burden of proof is upon you. All I'm saying is that it's more complicated than that, and you can't claim it without backing it up with sufficient demonstrable benefits of the one design over EVERY other. And no, it's not that simple, nor is stiffness the be all and end all. Stiffness in and of itself does not translate into a "better design" - especially for a full suspension bicycle. I claim its better and you claim its not, why is the burden of proof only on me? I have no other choice I guess but to play the subjectivity card here. A simple (German award-winning) design for a complicated problem does seem like the better design - "to me". I have not even brought the cost factor into the argument, but lets leave it at this, I surrender. Dammit Nerd you opened Pandora`s box here, this is what happens when 1 nerd asks another nerd to "tell us why". Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dev null Posted August 15, 2016 Share If one suspension design was the best, then everybody's design would naturally progress to that same design. As it is, this is not the case as the designers are all still very much trying their best to come up with the best design within certain constraints for a specific platform and application. Basically, they are all at the moment feeling their way through the darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Panda Posted August 15, 2016 Share If one suspension design was the best, then everybody's design would naturally progress to that same design. As it is, this is not the case as the designers are all still very much trying their best to come up with the best design within certain constraints for a specific platform and application. Basically, they are all at the moment feeling their way through the darkness. Its all about cost, milking old tech for the last penny. If nobody realizes 1 design is better than another, and the sales are good, then why progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted August 15, 2016 Share I claim its better and you claim its not, why is the burden of proof only on me? I have no other choice I guess but to play the subjectivity card here. A simple (German award-winning) design for a complicated problem does seem like the better design - "to me". I have not even brought the cost factor into the argument, but lets leave it at this, I surrender. Dammit Nerd you opened Pandora`s box here, this is what happens when 1 nerd asks another nerd to "tell us why". Peace! Simply because you posit that something is better than everything else. It's how things work from a scientific perspective. If you claim something, you have to be able to prove it and demonstrate it. I'm not claiming anything - I'm just saying that in order to say what you're saying, you need to have proof to demonstrate said superiority. And that it is far more complicated and in depth than a simple solid rear triangle and vertical shock positioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the nerd Posted August 15, 2016 Share Well I only asked... you challenged the design of an award winning and race proven frame? I wanted to know why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoBigBen Posted August 15, 2016 Share I 'posit' that most of its luddites can't feel the difference between the old and new designs anyway ???? Sent from my LG-D958 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dev null Posted August 15, 2016 Share Well I only asked... you challenged the design of an award winning and race proven frame? I wanted to know why... The BMC design is also race-proven and has not changed much in the past 6 years, yet it is radically different to that of the Spez. Just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Panda Posted August 15, 2016 Share Well I only asked... you challenged the design of an award winning and race proven frame? I wanted to know why... Ok,I gave you my answer but I can not back it up with science tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the nerd Posted August 15, 2016 Share The BMC design is also race-proven and has not changed much in the past 6 years, yet it is radically different to that of the Spez. Just sayin... I wasn't arguing the facts that there are many award winning and race proven designs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest notmyname Posted August 15, 2016 Share This thread. Ja! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Panda Posted August 15, 2016 Share The BMC design is also race-proven and has not changed much in the past 6 years, yet it is radically different to that of the Spez. Just sayin... Cannonball, Silverback and Trek have completely re-designed their frames and made it better (no I can not prove this with science tests so take it as a subjective statement only). I think BMC and Spaz can also improve with a new design. As a general rule in tech, especially if the tech is changing quickly, normally modern = better. This can be seen clearly in F1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the nerd Posted August 15, 2016 Share Cannonball, Silverback and Trek have completely re-designed their frames and made it better (no I can not prove this with science tests so take it as a subjective statement only). I think BMC and Spaz can also improve with a new design. As a general rule in tech, especially if the tech is changing quickly, normally modern = better. This can be seen clearly in F1. Formula one is no way shape or form better, it is far worse than it has ever been. Did you watch formula1 when these were racing?? http://cdn.images.autosport.com/editorial/1309963645.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mntboy Posted August 15, 2016 Share If one suspension design was the best, then everybody's design would naturally progress to that same design. As it is, this is not the case as the designers are all still very much trying their best to come up with the best design within certain constraints for a specific platform and application. Basically, they are all at the moment feeling their way through the darkness.And saying one suspension design is superior to all else is the same as saying that one bike is superior to all others. A little nonsensical to my ears. I don't think the designers are groping in the darkness, as such, more like ships of the same class being designed differently so as to access some or all of the world's ports. Think a geared bulk carrier v a non geared bulk carrier. Sent from my GT-S6790 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Panda Posted August 15, 2016 Share Formula one is no way shape or form better, it is far worse than it has ever been. Did you watch formula1 when these were racing?? I might have been watching this yes, early 80`s? I have completely lost interest in the last 3 years, the trails are just too nice and the car watching became too boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted August 15, 2016 Share I tried to follow the debatesBut it hurt my brain ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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