'Dale Posted February 18, 2017 Share Cadence CarboFuelAfter lots of hit-and-misses during experimentation, my fuel tank benefits best from Cadence Carb Fuel Pricing is superb. Edited February 18, 2017 by 'Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V12man Posted February 18, 2017 Share FAKE SCIENCE! It's disgusting.Someone ping Jeroen... The doctor..... The science is not fake - open to misinterpretation/ misunderstanding by some - but the science is pretty sound - and has not changed fundamentally in 25 years - usually.a.good test of sound science is time... Edit- I see someone did ping him... should read the whole thread before commenting. Edited February 18, 2017 by V12man 'Kaze Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Paulo Posted February 18, 2017 Share 32GI low GI works for me....I mix that rehydrate. Both blueberry flavour Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halfmoon Posted February 18, 2017 Share "Whasp" works like a bombwww.whasp.co.za Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannrissik Posted February 19, 2017 Share OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate? We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted February 19, 2017 Share OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate? We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ?Fat for fuel = ???? Carbs for fuel = ???? _David_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2017 Share OK, so how does the fat-adapted athlete operate? We have people saying fat is fuel and others saying carbs are fuel, what am I misunderstanding ?Both are fuels. One is just more easily accessible during intense exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted February 19, 2017 Share How did this now become a Cadence marketing exercise? Just answer the OP question and take the science debate somewhere else. #justsayingIt hasn't, and the science behind it all is a large part of the topic. 4 very good products have been recommended. Andrew Steer, Geronimo and IH8MUD 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannrissik Posted February 19, 2017 Share Thanks Dale & Patch. If that's the case, what's the carb : fat ratio in the "energy drinks" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoBigBen Posted February 19, 2017 Share I train and 'live' on fat/protein but I 'race' on carbs ... Deurmekaar I tell you ???? Sent from my LG-D958 using Tapatalk Patchelicious 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted February 19, 2017 Share Both are fuels. One is just more easily accessible during intense exercise. The carb / fat question is a very interesting one for which we don't have enough answers yet. We are doing quite a bit of research in this domain at the moment and recently published a paper on this. Link here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26918583 Here is what we know at the moment: During exercise the primary fuel source is carbohydrate. Peak carbohydrate oxidation rates are as high as 8g/min at very high intensities in elite athletes. We used to think that peak fat oxidation rates were always below 1g/min as nobody had ever reported higher than this in any study. Most elite athletes have peak fat oxidation rates of about 0.6g/min When people started banting and also exercising new data emerged that showed that on a LCHF diet, peak fat oxidation rates could reach as high 1.8g/min in a small number of athletes. That is more than twice what we previously thought was possible. This is still quite a few orders of magnitude lower than CHO oxidation rates though. However, that changes our paradigm to some extent with respect to fuelling for endurance sports. A fat oxidation rate of >1.5g/min can sustain an intensity equivalent to approximately 65% of VO2max power. Which is a fairly easonable pace. It is therefore possible to fuel without any carbs for an ultra-endurance event when the pace is not excessively high and is kept constant. A good example would be an age grouper or competitive Ironman athlete on a relatively flat course profile. Things get a little more complicated when you start looking at sports in which the pace varies significantly e.g. road or MTB Habitual LCHF athletes have down regulated CHO absorption rates and also have lower oxidative and glycolytic capacity for CHO. As such, the carbs that they do have stored are not as accessible as they would be in a mixed diet athlete. In addition, they cannot absorb CHO at the same rate as a mixed diet athlete. The study posted above showed that they also do not convert fats or proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis) at a faster rate than mixed diet athletes. So they are somewhat dependent on fat as a source of energy (or so it seems from our data to date). The upside is that fat is a virtually limitless energy supply and you will therefore never bonk as a LCHF athlete. Many LCHF athletes are completing events like the Ironman on fluids alone. No exogenous fuel! Whether the LCHF diet is a good diet for overall health in the long term is still unclear. So the above points relate solely to performance. The downside is that LCHF can result in greater fatigue in the first few months and may also suppress the immune response. We have unpublished data from ironman athletes that demonstrates higher rates of infections for LCHF athletes than their traditional counterparts. Monitoring fatigue is therefore very important when following a LCHF diet. Adaptation to LCHF as an athlete also takes a few months. It's not something you can switch to overnight. A new strategy that has emerged in recent years is one which attempts to gain some benefit from both fats and CHO. This is know as periodised nutrition. It involves 2-3 fasted exercise sessions each week to stimulate fat oxidation rates. The other 2-3 sessions are down with maximal CHO feeding rates (60-90g/hr) to stimulate the up-regulation of CHO transporters in the gut (training the gut) and to maintain CHO oxidation capacity and glycolysis in the muscle. It also results in a leaner athlete. In races (particularly ultra-distance) the athlete will sometimes fuel with a mix of carbs and fats in the first few hours and then switch to CHO in the last 2 hours. Typical is a Tour De France mountain stage in which the first few climbs are ridden at a lower intensity and then the attacks start to happen on the last climb. With this strategy we can get athletes to achieve fat oxidation rates that are higher than traditional mixed diet athletes but they are still below 1g/min. However, it creates a larger fuel tank while maintaining the ability to perform very high intensity exercise. We are busy writing up data on a LCHF ultra athlete that was tested in LCHF state and again in when using periodised nutrition. The periodised nutrition improved 20km TT power but did not improve 100km TT. So this does confirm our hypothesis to some extent. We will be publishing this data soon. I hope that gives some clarification. We still need to do answer a lot of questions but the science is definitely being conducted and will be published in the coming years. IH8MUD, HBO, andydude and 7 others 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted February 19, 2017 Share I train and 'live' on fat/protein but I 'race' on carbs ... Deurmekaar I tell you Sent from my LG-D958 using Tapatalk That's probably the worst strategy. See above post. Add 2 training sessions each week with carbs and the rest fasted. You will notice a big improvement in races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Dale Posted February 19, 2017 Share What a cool thing to have The Doctor supply this forum with his insights. ???????? Edited February 19, 2017 by 'Dale BigDL, Blackadder and IH8MUD 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malpiet Posted February 19, 2017 Share 50/50 apple juice and water High5 tab in the other bottle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannrissik Posted February 19, 2017 Share The carb / fat question is a very interesting one for which we don't have enough answers yet. We are doing quite a bit of research in this domain at the moment and recently published a paper on this. Link here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26918583 Here is what we know at the moment: During exercise the primary fuel source is carbohydrate. Peak carbohydrate oxidation rates are as high as 8g/min at very high intensities in elite athletes. We used to think that peak fat oxidation rates were always below 1g/min as nobody had ever reported higher than this in any study. Most elite athletes have peak fat oxidation rates of about 0.6g/min When people started banting and also exercising new data emerged that showed that on a LCHF diet, peak fat oxidation rates could reach as high 1.8g/min in a small number of athletes. That is more than twice what we previously thought was possible. This is still quite a few orders of magnitude lower than CHO oxidation rates though. However, that changes our paradigm to some extent with respect to fuelling for endurance sports. A fat oxidation rate of >1.5g/min can sustain an intensity equivalent to approximately 65% of VO2max power. Which is a fairly easonable pace. It is therefore possible to fuel without any carbs for an ultra-endurance event when the pace is not excessively high and is kept constant. A good example would be an age grouper or competitive Ironman athlete on a relatively flat course profile. Things get a little more complicated when you start looking at sports in which the pace varies significantly e.g. road or MTB Habitual LCHF athletes have down regulated CHO absorption rates and also have lower oxidative and glycolytic capacity for CHO. As such, the carbs that they do have stored are not as accessible as they would be in a mixed diet athlete. In addition, they cannot absorb CHO at the same rate as a mixed diet athlete. The study posted above showed that they also do not convert fats or proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis) at a faster rate than mixed diet athletes. So they are somewhat dependent on fat as a source of energy (or so it seems from our data to date). The upside is that fat is a virtually limitless energy supply and you will therefore never bonk as a LCHF athlete. Many LCHF athletes are completing events like the Ironman on fluids alone. No exogenous fuel! Whether the LCHF diet is a good diet for overall health in the long term is still unclear. So the above points relate solely to performance. The downside is that LCHF can result in greater fatigue in the first few months and may also suppress the immune response. We have unpublished data from ironman athletes that demonstrates higher rates of infections for LCHF athletes than their traditional counterparts. Monitoring fatigue is therefore very important when following a LCHF diet. Adaptation to LCHF as an athlete also takes a few months. It's not something you can switch to overnight. A new strategy that has emerged in recent years is one which attempts to gain some benefit from both fats and CHO. This is know as periodised nutrition. It involves 2-3 fasted exercise sessions each week to stimulate fat oxidation rates. The other 2-3 sessions are down with maximal CHO feeding rates (60-90g/hr) to stimulate the up-regulation of CHO transporters in the gut (training the gut) and to maintain CHO oxidation capacity and glycolysis in the muscle. It also results in a leaner athlete. In races (particularly ultra-distance) the athlete will sometimes fuel with a mix of carbs and fats in the first few hours and then switch to CHO in the last 2 hours. Typical is a Tour De France mountain stage in which the first few climbs are ridden at a lower intensity and then the attacks start to happen on the last climb. With this strategy we can get athletes to achieve fat oxidation rates that are higher than traditional mixed diet athletes but they are still below 1g/min. However, it creates a larger fuel tank while maintaining the ability to perform very high intensity exercise. We are busy writing up data on a LCHF ultra athlete that was tested in LCHF state and again in when using periodised nutrition. The periodised nutrition improved 20km TT power but did not improve 100km TT. So this does confirm our hypothesis to some extent. We will be publishing this data soon. I hope that gives some clarification. We still need to do answer a lot of questions but the science is definitely being conducted and will be published in the coming years.Thank you very much for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoBigBen Posted February 19, 2017 Share That's probably the worst strategy. See above post. Add 2 training sessions each week with carbs and the rest fasted. You will notice a big improvement in races.I accept that if one's focus is on going faster, for me controlling my weight is the most important thing. After 56yrs I know this strategy works for ME ???? Sent from my LG-D958 using Tapatalk Andrew Steer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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