W/kg ranges corresponding to PPA road seeding

[Fat Boab]

No, I understood his post completely (thought it was a good one at that) But this shows alittle how off some seedings are by the postings of values.

 

If the appropriate statistical approach is applied, outliers of all kinds will be identified.

[J Wakefield]

If you did the test at altitude, then you need to ADD 5 - 10% to your value before comparing to the values on the chart - this is called adjusting for altitude (of the test)

 

If you did the test at sea level, then there is no need to adjust the FTP value.

 

Personally I don't believe the 5 - 10% adjustment is that accurate - I suspect it may vary more or less from that by a considerable measure, and seems very individualised.

 

The difference between having significant data and tests to what one personally believes is often very different. In some cases there is no difference at all in some athletes. I have a small handful of athletes that go better at altitude than at sea level and they were born and currently live at SL.

[V12man]

The difference between having significant data and tests to what one personally believes is often very different. In some cases there is no difference at all in some athletes. I have a small handful of athletes that go better at altitude than at sea level and they were born and currently live at SL.

I do actually have significant data....

 

And your statement seems to agree with mine.... if you are saying that some of your athletes FTP values are higher at altitude than at sea level.... then I suspect some of those tests are not done under equivalent conditions and fitness levels.

 

Everybody degrades their ftp as they go to altitude (given identical tests and athlete condition at the time of testing) - the issue is at what rate their FTP degrades - and I believe there is a lot of individuality in the rate of degradation - so basically 5-10% as an adjustment factor may be considerably incorrect.

 

And where one was born has NOTHING to do with  FTP...  where you live (at altitude or at SL) compared to where you are tested (altitude or SL) MAY have an influence on an FTP test results - I have not seen any studies on that yet - it would be an interesting study to do.

[devocean]

This right here is part of the issue I have with PPA and seedings.

 

Basing a seeding on power values is dangerous. Anyone can always put 1 all out effort in and get a great value. Anyone can. This value then does not always (hardly ever) translate into their bike handling ability or having to be able to produce that value over and over in a race when under pressure. This is when guys are outskilled for their seeding and way out their depth. 

Spinnerkop maybe not any more be a top level elite, but I would rather sit on his wheel in a gutter at 55km/h chewing bar tape than 96% of the A seeded riders at a PPA race. Purely from knowing how to handle a bike in that situation.

 

Devo: I am not in anyway bashing you, I am using your post as a example. I do wish you not out the back in the coming future. 

 

No offence taken, I totally agree with you. Half the time I stay out in the wind because I don't trust the okes around me at speed. Probably just getting old.

[pe3nguin]

Repeatability is something that seldom gets discussed in these power threads. Its all good and well to be able to smash it in the big ring for 2/5/10/20min, but how quickly can you recover and do it again...and again...its starting to hurt...and ag- nah **** this

[J Wakefield]

I do actually have significant data....

 

And your statement seems to agree with mine.... if you are saying that some of your athletes FTP values are higher at altitude than at sea level.... then I suspect some of those tests are not done under equivalent conditions and fitness levels.

 

Everybody degrades their ftp as they go to altitude (given identical tests and athlete condition at the time of testing) - the issue is at what rate their FTP degrades - and I believe there is a lot of individuality in the rate of degradation - so basically 5-10% as an adjustment factor may be considerably incorrect.

 

And where one was born has NOTHING to do with  FTP...  where you live (at altitude or at SL) compared to where you are tested (altitude or SL) MAY have an influence on an FTP test results - I have not seen any studies on that yet - it would be an interesting study to do.

 

 

Unfortunately my statement does not agree with yours or with your post(s) and your suspicions on tests is also unfortunately wrong. Just cause you have not seen a study, doesn't mean none have been done. 

 

I also should not of conversed with you, it was my own mistake.

 

Go well. 

[J Wakefield]

Repeatability is something that seldom gets discussed in these power threads. Its all good and well to be able to smash it in the big ring for 2/5/10/20min, but how quickly can you recover and do it again...and again...its starting to hurt...and ag- nah **** this

 

Correct, those who win and do well are consistent over efforts - the rest who can do a once off, are always left behind.

[Patchelicious]

Unfortunately my statement does not agree with yours or with your post(s) and your suspicions on tests is also unfortunately wrong. Just cause you have not seen a study, doesn't mean none have been done.

You have some that you can share?

[Vetplant]

Ppa seeding:30 (only did Emperors earlier this year, so suspect my seeding should actually be between 15 and 20 after Amashova+Tshwane+947)

W/kg:2.82 (FTP test did in Sept)

[Malpiet]

Was group D dropped to F because no races since argus 2016, FTP 3.08

 

Cant log into ppa site i think it was 21-22 i think.

[Fat Boab]

Repeatability is something that seldom gets discussed in these power threads. Its all good and well to be able to smash it in the big ring for 2/5/10/20min, but how quickly can you recover and do it again...and again...its starting to hurt...and ag- nah **** this

 

And here was me thinking this thread was going to try to return to some scientific basis, with talk of repeatability...and maybe even replication? Alas not - next time perhaps.

[Fat Boab]

Unfortunately my statement does not agree with yours or with your post(s) and your suspicions on tests is also unfortunately wrong. Just cause you have not seen a study, doesn't mean none have been done. 

 

I also should not of conversed with you, it was my own mistake.

 

Go well. 

 

Why a mistake, I wonder? Difference of opinion, or difference of fact? Or something else?

[dave303e]

This right here is part of the issue I have with PPA and seedings.

 

Basing a seeding on power values is dangerous. Anyone can always put 1 all out effort in and get a great value. Anyone can. This value then does not always (hardly ever) translate into their bike handling ability or having to be able to produce that value over and over in a race when under pressure. This is when guys are outskilled for their seeding and way out their depth. 

Spinnerkop maybe not any more be a top level elite, but I would rather sit on his wheel in a gutter at 55km/h chewing bar tape than 96% of the A seeded riders at a PPA race. Purely from knowing how to handle a bike in that situation.

 

Devo: I am not in anyway bashing you, I am using your post as a example. I do wish you not out the back in the coming future. 

 

I have to agree, there are a lot of pedalers but they are certainly not all cyclists you see this a lot on the mtb side as well.

 

As a  matter of interest, I have not done a FTP test ever, I do spend a lot of time on the wattbike if at a maximal sustainable effort for 1 hour with constant resistance and cadence could I equate that to an ftp score, or will it go up doing a 20 min ftp test?

[Halfdoesyn]

All things being equal, you cannot have a better FTP at altitude than at sea level. Something else must be flawed.

 

If you PERFORM better in actual conditions at altitude, there must be another explanation - but not FTP.

[NotSoBigBen]

Unless your FTP test has been done in a controlled environment and verified I'd take it with a pinch of salt, but that's just me. I wouldn't put mine here as I'm not convinced I followed the 'protocol' 100% but I'm happy to use it for my own 'hacker' training [emoji6]

 

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[pe3nguin]

Hey numpties. Your FTP isn't a magic number that solves all of your problems on the bike. Sure, wave it around if you must, but rather focus on it as something to guide your training.