MintSauce Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 And as proof of this, the University of Eastern Cape is 800 million in debt because students have stopped paying their fees since Zuma announced free education to students with combined household income < 350k per annum. And now they started burning infrastructure again because they want "better" residences. WHO THE FUK has to pay for all that??? NOT ME!!! Another example of entitlement in practice. This country, where people think we "owe" them... I said it before, and I will repeat it again. This is why live ammunition. This country and it's issues has got me to the point where I am actively working towards an exit strategy and hopefully I can get out before everything descends into complete chaos. However, I would like to address one comment that often comes up in these discussions, the entitlement-debate. Obviously it goes without saying that I am disgusted by these types of crimes and don't in any way wish to defend them. My comment wishes to address solely the issue of entitlement. The thing that most people don't realize is where exactly this sense of entitlement comes from. The vast group of 'previously disadvantaged individuals' (for lack of a better term) have been suppressed and treated unfairly. I don't need to tell anyone what apartheid did to these people. No housing, no jobs, no dignity, no vote, no hope, no way forward, no education. All power and self-worth and dignity was taken from these people. They were treated like rubbish for decades, beaten down with the white man's stick. Imagine you get born on the other side of the equation and from the very time you begin to form a view and opinion of the world, you see wherever you look that nothing, and I mean NOTHING, on any level, is afforded you. I don't mean things, I mean rights. Your entire life you grow up being deprived of the very things that any human being deserves as a right of birth. As a result of this, the things you can work for and achieve (by this I do mean actual things like houses and cars and clean clothes) are also held from you. You're not given the basic tools that empower you to get out of the hole you were born into. Through all of this you see white people everywhere driving cars that cost more than what you will earn in your entire life, living in beautiful houses, not to mention the richest elite, some of whose existence seems to revolve around sheer excess and waste. Now tell me after living a life of deprivation you wouldn't feel that you deserved something more, something better...? It might seem to you like these people want everything for free, but just maybe, they're just expressing their deep-rooted desire to just be given a ******* chance? The fact is that only by acknowledging it and taking ownership of it can one grow out of these attitudes. But after that sort of life, it would take a well-to-do person a few months/years worth of sessions with a good psychologist to work through and grow out of these issues. Now tell me, how many psychologists are there working the squatter camps? This leaves these people in a vicious circle of self-pity that grows into envy and sooner or later hatred. And that is never going to get expressed in a positive way, but it will be expressed. Again, I'm not condoning these attitudes, but perhaps some of us advantaged individuals can remove some prejudices and open our eyes a little more and gain a slightly bigger perspective and perhaps be a bit more understanding of the issues others have faced for their entire lives and continue to face from day to day.
Andrew Steer Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 This country and it's issues has got me to the point where I am actively working towards an exit strategy and hopefully I can get out before everything descends into complete chaos. However, I would like to address one comment that often comes up in these discussions, the entitlement-debate. Obviously it goes without saying that I am disgusted by these types of crimes and don't in any way wish to defend them. My comment wishes to address solely the issue of entitlement. The thing that most people don't realize is where exactly this sense of entitlement comes from. The vast group of 'previously disadvantaged individuals' (for lack of a better term) have been suppressed and treated unfairly. I don't need to tell anyone what apartheid did to these people. No housing, no jobs, no dignity, no vote, no hope, no way forward, no education. All power and self-worth and dignity was taken from these people. They were treated like rubbish for decades, beaten down with the white man's stick. Imagine you get born on the other side of the equation and from the very time you begin to form a view and opinion of the world, you see wherever you look that nothing, and I mean NOTHING, on any level, is afforded you. I don't mean things, I mean rights. Your entire life you grow up being deprived of the very things that any human being deserves as a right of birth. As a result of this, the things you can work for and achieve (by this I do mean actual things like houses and cars and clean clothes) are also held from you. You're not given the basic tools that empower you to get out of the hole you were born into. Through all of this you see white people everywhere driving cars that cost more than what you will earn in your entire life, living in beautiful houses, not to mention the richest elite, some of whose existence seems to revolve around sheer excess and waste. Now tell me after living a life of deprivation you wouldn't feel that you deserved something more, something better...? It might seem to you like these people want everything for free, but just maybe, they're just expressing their deep-rooted desire to just be given a ******* chance? The fact is that only by acknowledging it and taking ownership of it can one grow out of these attitudes. But after that sort of life, it would take a well-to-do person a few months/years worth of sessions with a good psychologist to work through and grow out of these issues. Now tell me, how many psychologists are there working the squatter camps? This leaves these people in a vicious circle of self-pity that grows into envy and sooner or later hatred. And that is never going to get expressed in a positive way, but it will be expressed. Again, I'm not condoning these attitudes, but perhaps some of us advantaged individuals can remove some prejudices and open our eyes a little more and gain a slightly bigger perspective and perhaps be a bit more understanding of the issues others have faced for their entire lives and continue to face from day to day. Give this man a bells... brilliantly put. It's my view on the land debate too. Nobody on this here forum is desperate enough to risk his life for a little 20-15m plot in the middle of the veld with no access or amenities, but god forbid someone with nothing wants just this tiny little foot up in life to give it some meaning and a glimmer of hope. Crime is also very much related to desperation, I honestly don't know the human being I would be if I'd lost all hope and had nothing worthwhile to live for. Imagine as an example, watching your child die of some simple disease at a government hospital due to lack of services and attention - I'd be a very angry man There are no easy ways out of this giant mess we have, but pretending the problem is not there, and that it's not our problem is no solution either. Sorry, just realised what a tangent I went off on there
Shebeen Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 This country and it's issues has got me to the point where I am actively working towards an exit strategy and hopefully I can get out before everything descends into complete chaos. But you say that every classics season,
scubes Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 So you are on your way out. Okay. AS for entitlement as you explain it, yes and no. Remember that the Irish who went to America were at first oppressed. Then the whites (a majority) oppressed the blacks (a minority) ie slavery. Can slavery be used as an excuse for U.S. blacks to murder and attack U.S. whites and rob them and take their land and property without compensation? The Germans murdered millions of Jews, should Jews use this as a reason to attack Germans today? In SA the whites a minority oppressed the blacks a majority. IF you read the population stats blacks were not a huge majority until relatively recently edged on by ANC rhetoric about no education (suddenly now they want free education, white man's education too) and about having kids lots of kids and leading to violent political freedom. You either make a plan and move forward and get on with it, or you make an excuse and live in the past? A lot of this violence seems to have flared up with the land issue and Malema and the Black land movement etc. Blacks want land. But whether black or white do you not need to work for land and buy land? Interestingly under Apartheid when the Nats created the Bantustans, these 10 areas comprised almost 50% then of SA's arable land. Yet black farms there were in poor condition due to over grazing and resultant soil erosion. Not easy to just take land and farm. This was a major reason why many black men left the so called homelands and went to work in white mines where they were paid (ie not slaves as many American blacks were slaves) and left their families behind. This labour migration as we know now set the seeds for a breakdown in the black family network with men absent from families and so on. Todays PDIs - many of them are young, look at the population stats, and many were not even alive when apartheid began to end in 1989/90. As for advantaged individuals and therapy, it seems all South Africans black and white need counselling. Way too much tension in this country you see it all over. Road rage is just one obvious expression. Anyone I know who is successful has worked hard to get there- I don't know any white people who were handed millions by the Govt- though today the black ANC Govt does hand millions out only to blacks based on contacts and tenders- we call this corruption and nepotism and wastage and fraud and inefficiency. I have hiked the Transkei/Wild Coast which is a beautiful area of rolling green hills with rivers and streams everywhere- fish in the rivers and fish in the sea. Rich farmland where you can easily farm with plentiful rainfall. Forests and trees to use to build your cabin, or mud huts if you so choose. What an idyllic lifestyle- you have top wealthy company execs who work hard until 70 and then retired to such places for such a lifestyle. Mass urbanization is not always the answer. The white man's city life is not always the answer- white liberals try push the white man's way of life onto the black man or red indian or aborigine- why? Which is superior? Neither is. Blacks living a rural life of subsistence is not a bad thing- you don't need money or a bank account- you grow live trade barter eat sleep and can be very happy and stress free. Rural dwellers who flock to cities with no city skills will not find jobs or places to stay- they get frustrated angry and turn to crime. The ANC Govt does not have large programmes in place to address this and are not interested. Alex today is not much better than the Alex of 1980. It is simply just not as simple as you make out. And it is NOT an excuse for violent attacks on whites whatever they earn, by blacks whatever they earn or wherever they live. This country and it's issues has got me to the point where I am actively working towards an exit strategy and hopefully I can get out before everything descends into complete chaos. ... where exactly this sense of entitlement comes from. The vast group of 'previously disadvantaged individuals' (for lack of a better term) have been suppressed and treated unfairly. Again, I'm not condoning these attitudes, but perhaps some of us advantaged individuals can remove
NickGM Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 The thing that most people don't realize is where exactly this sense of entitlement comes from. The vast group of 'previously disadvantaged individuals' (for lack of a better term) have been suppressed and treated unfairly. I don't need to tell anyone what apartheid did to these people. No housing, no jobs, no dignity, no vote, no hope, no way forward, no education. All power and self-worth and dignity was taken from these people. They were treated like rubbish for decades, beaten down with the white man's stick.Actually, you often do have to tell people what apartheid did. My parents were both from very poor (white) families, but they worked their asses off, took turns going to university (so that one could support the other), caught buses (they didn't have a car), got part time jobs, got bursaries, and eventually managed to both get degrees. Am I proud of them? You bet, they were the first in their families (ever) to get degrees. And I've had a really privileged life because of it. But....those places at university, those bursaries, those seats on the bus, those part time jobs - only available to whites. Life is a lot easier when you are only competing against 10% of the population. Being a farmer is easier when you think it is OK to pay somebody R10/ton. Running a construction company is easier when you think it is OK to pay your labourers R4K/month. So if people are wondering why large parts of our population feel like they are owed something, it's because they are. It's embarrassing that I even have to put the following disclaimer down, but it is necessary to avoid some knee-jerk response from a blinkered knuckle-dragging keyboard warrior: I don't condone violence/murder and I'm desperately sorry for the people involved in this story. I can just see why it is happening.
Slowbee Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 So you are on your way out. Okay. AS for entitlement as you explain it, yes and no. Remember that the Irish who went to America were at first oppressed. Then the whites (a majority) oppressed the blacks (a minority) ie slavery. Can slavery be used as an excuse for U.S. blacks to murder and attack U.S. whites and rob them and take their land and property without compensation? The Germans murdered millions of Jews, should Jews use this as a reason to attack Germans today? In SA the whites a minority oppressed the blacks a majority. IF you read the population stats blacks were not a huge majority until relatively recently edged on by ANC rhetoric about no education (suddenly now they want free education, white man's education too) and about having kids lots of kids and leading to violent political freedom. you have got to be kidding me ? I stopped reading your essay when I had to re read this a few times. Your comments lost all credibility right there.
MintSauce Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 So you are on your way out. Okay. AS for entitlement as you explain it, yes and no. Remember that the Irish who went to America were at first oppressed. Then the whites (a majority) oppressed the blacks (a minority) ie slavery. Can slavery be used as an excuse for U.S. blacks to murder and attack U.S. whites and rob them and take their land and property without compensation? The Germans murdered millions of Jews, should Jews use this as a reason to attack Germans today? In SA the whites a minority oppressed the blacks a majority. IF you read the population stats blacks were not a huge majority until relatively recently edged on by ANC rhetoric about no education (suddenly now they want free education, white man's education too) and about having kids lots of kids and leading to violent political freedom. You either make a plan and move forward and get on with it, or you make an excuse and live in the past? A lot of this violence seems to have flared up with the land issue and Malema and the Black land movement etc. Blacks want land. But whether black or white do you not need to work for land and buy land? Interestingly under Apartheid when the Nats created the Bantustans, these 10 areas comprised almost 50% then of SA's arable land. Yet black farms there were in poor condition due to over grazing and resultant soil erosion. Not easy to just take land and farm. This was a major reason why many black men left the so called homelands and went to work in white mines where they were paid (ie not slaves as many American blacks were slaves) and left their families behind. This labour migration as we know now set the seeds for a breakdown in the black family network with men absent from families and so on. Todays PDIs - many of them are young, look at the population stats, and many were not even alive when apartheid began to end in 1989/90. As for advantaged individuals and therapy, it seems all South Africans black and white need counselling. Way too much tension in this country you see it all over. Road rage is just one obvious expression. Anyone I know who is successful has worked hard to get there- I don't know any white people who were handed millions by the Govt- though today the black ANC Govt does hand millions out only to blacks based on contacts and tenders- we call this corruption and nepotism and wastage and fraud and inefficiency. I have hiked the Transkei/Wild Coast which is a beautiful area of rolling green hills with rivers and streams everywhere- fish in the rivers and fish in the sea. Rich farmland where you can easily farm with plentiful rainfall. Forests and trees to use to build your cabin, or mud huts if you so choose. What an idyllic lifestyle- you have top wealthy company execs who work hard until 70 and then retired to such places for such a lifestyle. Mass urbanization is not always the answer. The white man's city life is not always the answer- white liberals try push the white man's way of life onto the black man or red indian or aborigine- why? Which is superior? Neither is. Blacks living a rural life of subsistence is not a bad thing- you don't need money or a bank account- you grow live trade barter eat sleep and can be very happy and stress free. Rural dwellers who flock to cities with no city skills will not find jobs or places to stay- they get frustrated angry and turn to crime. The ANC Govt does not have large programmes in place to address this and are not interested. Alex today is not much better than the Alex of 1980. It is simply just not as simple as you make out. And it is NOT an excuse for violent attacks on whites whatever they earn, by blacks whatever they earn or wherever they live. You've missed my point entirely. Try reading it without defense.
Fat Boab Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 you have got to be kidding me ? I stopped reading your essay when I had to re read this a few times. Your comments lost all credibility right there. In SA the whites a minority oppressed the blacks a majority. IF you read the population stats blacks were not a huge majority until relatively recently edged on by ANC rhetoric about no education (suddenly now they want free education, white man's education too) and about having kids lots of kids and leading to violent political freedom. if Wikipedia is to believed....."The white population has experienced a sharp decline over time, due to Emigration and much lower fertility rates. The first census in South Africa in 1911 showed that whites made up 22% of the population; it declined to 16% in 1980,[20] and 8.9% in 2011.[21]:21" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Africa
scubes Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 you have got to be kidding me ? I stopped reading your essay when I had to re read this a few times. Your comments lost all credibility right there.
Chingy182 Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 We are all allowed to have our own opinions on this matter and I am not going to try to convince anyone of my thinking either or give in to yours.I enjoy and encourage a healthy debate. I agree wholeheartedly with what Scubes says in his last few posts.I look at the stats shown above and I draw a few logical conclusions, such as if I decided to have 7 kids I will be doing some sort of self-oppression to my standards of living and the opportunities I can accost them kids. None of us are the same, non of us have the same family or financial background either, nor do we all compete at exactly the same level at sport, etc.I didn't have the same luxury or opportunities than the kids of Johan Rupert.I don't go hating on them just for that fact. Bottom line is their father was willing to work harder than my father (and probably a lot smarter too) and they're both white and had access to the same opportunities. Life is like a game of poker - It's not the hand that you are dealt, but how you play it.Crime is a choice. Finish and klaar.I have seen real hardship and poverty in countries like Vietnam too (20 people sleeping in one small room). Those people choose not to give in to a life of crime.
Chingy182 Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 Firstly I don't think you can use the US as a barometer for the behaviour of any other group of people. Secondly I never said everyone must hand in their guns. "Everyone handing in their guns have never worked in a society," - worked in these countries https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-controlSo according to your own admission:If we can't use the USA as a barometer for the behavior of a group of people, then we also can't use the success stories of those 4 countries as a guide either?
Karooryder Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 So you are on your way out. Okay. (etc etc etc) It is simply just not as simple as you make out. And it is NOT an excuse for violent attacks on whites whatever they earn, by blacks whatever they earn or wherever they live. I'm reminded of a quote that came up on my social media way too many times these past few days with the passing of Stephen Hawking:"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is illusion of knowledge". Thoroughly debating all the assumptions and generalisations above (clearly rooted in a classic Eurocentric viewpoint) will take me the entire afternoon and it’s almost beer hour. But I do want to comment a bit… “The Germans murdered millions of Jews, should Jews use this as a reason to attack Germans today?” ENTIRELY different historical context. ENTIRELY. Ps – Google “Godwin’s Law” “IF you read the population stats blacks were not a huge majority until relatively recently edged on by ANC rhetoric about no education (suddenly now they want free education, white man's education too) and about having kids lots of kids and leading to violent political freedom”.This is factually inaccurate and an assumption. The last lines are hearsay assumptions. “Interestingly under Apartheid when the Nats created the Bantustans, these 10 areas comprised almost 50% then of SA's arable land. Yet black farms there were in poor condition due to over grazing and resultant soil erosion. Not easy to just take land and farm. This was a major reason why many black men left the so called homelands and went to work in white mines where they were paid”. I would LOVE to see your factual evidence for these sweeping assumptions. “Todays PDIs - many of them are young, look at the population stats, and many were not even alive when apartheid began to end in 1989/90.”Yup – but the effects of the system resonated (and still resonates) for many years to come. “I don't know any white people who were handed millions by the Govt- though today the black ANC Govt does hand millions out only to blacks based on contacts and tenders” .Handed out not because they are black but because they are connected to a larger web of corruption, more often than not controlled by non-black elements. Ps – as we have seen, quite a few of the Rands exceeding 7 digits in the hands of whites have been obtained by nefarious means (shall we even talk about the Stellenbosch Mafia…). “I have hiked the Transkei/Wild Coast which is a beautiful area of rolling green hills with rivers and streams everywhere- fish in the rivers and fish in the sea. Rich farmland where you can easily farm with plentiful rainfall. Forests and trees to use to build your cabin, or mud huts if you so choose. What an idyllic lifestyle- you have top wealthy company execs who work hard until 70 and then retired to such places for such a lifestyle”And this right here is where you lost me…I’m not even gonna start but hey let’s just jumble them all up in a hut somewhere in the Transkei, I mean all they need to survive is a full belly and a dry bed after all… “Blacks living a rural life of subsistence is not a bad thing- you don't need money or a bank account- you grow live trade barter eat sleep and can be very happy and stress free”.You recon? Do share your experience in this regards. “It is simply just not as simple as you make out” – nope , it’s not as simple as YOU make out. I read a post like this and I get really angry at the arrogance from which we assume the needs, desires and dreams of fellow humans in our embattled country. It makes me furious to think that, while most of us budget for our next CTCT or holiday in Plett or 4x4 accessory, we also assume and promote a subjective history in order to keep those who disturb our comfortable lifestyles at bay. Humble pie is not always a lekker pie to eat but at least it won’t make you regurgitate assumptions and arrogance. Beer time…I’m out. (edit - spelling)
Shebeen Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 I love facts. but my bullshitometer pinged big time on this one. a quick reverse image search tells me that this is fromhttp://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2018/03/01/white-refugees-from-third-world-barbarism-the-case-of-south-africa-part-2/ and the reddit discussing it tells me this.https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/comments/62bnzl/south_africa_demographics_for_1868_and_subsequent/ The earliest national census was in 1904. Whites were 21.6% of the populationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Africa#1904_CensusThat would have been around the height of the white population.There IS no census data for 1868 because South Africa was not a single country back then and the various newly created Boer Republics didn't have censuses and some of the African Kingdoms were still independent. But whites would not have been close to 50% nationwide.
kosmonooit Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 So do we now say shame, this guy was on drugs so he didn't know he stabbed the victim 10 times??If a drunk driver kills a rider then everyone condemns it in the strongest. The drunk driver did not go out looking for someone on a bicycle to kill but your low life, no sorry, poor drug addict who actually planned to rob and kill someone, we should not be too harsh on him. I am not saying forgive the drunk driver, but there is a vast difference between negligence,( the drunk driver), and premeditated murder. Not at all - my work was in a totally different non-violent sector. I was just adding to the conversation by mentioning that drug-induced psychosis is a serious issue, and could have been a factor here, And that if you are facing such a situation with a person holding you up, they could be have such a disposition: 1) They could be capable of great bursts of strength2) Their moral compass has gone totally south. Best solution imho is to offer the least possible resistance, calm the attacker down and get the hell out of there. Dealing constructively with the culture of substance abuse in those communities will be the only long term solution, and I don't profess to hold the answers to that. But if you want to know more why not Google drug induced psychosis Here's one link
Shebeen Posted March 16, 2018 Posted March 16, 2018 A lot of this violence seems to have flared up with the land issue and Malema and the Black land movement etc. Blacks want land. But whether black or white do you not need to work for land and buy land? http://pmdesire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03-1.png you went down this road, didn't you?
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