The Veganism Thread

[Edition 507]

If we are to save mother Earth , a meat based diet has to cease immediately. 

 

Vegan bullsh1t propaganda readily sucked up by the gullible and easily influenced. You should join a cult, you seem particularly suited to brainwashing.

[IceCreamMan]

Vegan bullsh1t propaganda readily sucked up by the gullible and easily influenced. You should join a cult, you seem particularly suited to brainwashing.

 

Well, this is where the rubber meets the road. You cannot accept one aspect of science and not another. This is the dilemma many have I suspect.

 

Its fairly well known that livestock contribute massively to emissions. Emissions lead to climate changes..again this is fairly well documented. Once certain changes have taken effect life as we know it will probably cease, the 6th mass extinction if you will. Not really sure which part you are saying is brain washing. Whether this occurs in 8.5 years or 85 years or 850 years we don't actually know but it is going to happen at some point. (of course a solution could be to re use those emissions a la Beyond Thunderdome but that's not viable on a large scale at this point.

 

And we can fight all day long about that and we can insult each other and garner likes until doomsday, so to pre-empt all that nastiness I will just say that your post is something Hitler would say.

[Eldron]

Vegan bullsh1t propaganda readily sucked up by the gullible and easily influenced. You should join a cult, you seem particularly suited to brainwashing.

To be fair the only person that is clinging to a single idea with no ability to accept new information or change even when a planet of scientists offers it to them is you.

[Rocket-Boy]

To be fair the only person that is clinging to a single idea with no ability to accept new information or change even when a planet of scientists offers it to them is you.

^He is right you know

I was in the same boat a few months ago, no way I was giving up my steak etc.

Then my wife and I started experimenting with some no-meat meals and they were really good, before we realized it we hadnt eaten meat in a good few weeks and werent missing it.

 

I have always loved animals and wont intentionally kill anything - unless its a mosquito, those suckers are fair game!

[Edition 507]

Well, this is where the rubber meets the road. You cannot accept one aspect of science and not another. This is the dilemma many have I suspect.

 

Its fairly well known that livestock contribute massively to emissions. Emissions lead to climate changes..again this is fairly well documented. Once certain changes have taken effect life as we know it will probably cease, the 6th mass extinction if you will. Not really sure which part you are saying is brain washing. Whether this occurs in 8.5 years or 85 years or 850 years we don't actually know but it is going to happen at some point. (of course a solution could be to re use those emissions a la Beyond Thunderdome but that's not viable on a large scale at this point.

 

And we can fight all day long about that and we can insult each other and garner likes until doomsday, so to pre-empt all that nastiness I will just say that your post is something Hitler would say.

 

Bra, I am fully aware of the 6th mass extinction in case you have not noticed. We are actually well into the 6th mass extinction, and I am sorry to break this news to you, it is not caused by cows farting. The sole cause to the desperate state we find our world in is due to exponential population growth. For vegans to contribute this to meat eating is immoral and downright treachery. This is blatant misinformation and propaganda to further their agenda.

 

Even if every single human ceased to eat meat we still need an exponential growth in plant food production to feed our exponential population growth. This requires exponential water resources, exponential arable land, exponential fertilizer that exponentially pollutes and degrades our soil. All this requires exponential harvesting, processing, packaging and distribution.

 

How is not eating meat going to feed all these people? In fact not eating meat is going to have a very big negative affect because humans will be missing out on the high nutritional value and density that meat offers. As a result we are conservatively going to have to triple plant based output to match our minimum calorie intake. Of course this is not going to happen overnight, so while we are desperately trying to grow more food, many millions of humans are going to starve, be malnourished, have stunted development and of course die.

 

Practically, if we stopped eating meat we would still have exactly the same number of animals to feed which of course are going to fart exactly the same amount. Although we are not going to get any food value from these animals, we are still going to have to grow food for them, like we currently do (heaven forbid we starve them to death). They are still going to need exactly the same amount of pasture land that they need now, so we are not going to score extra land to grow our own food. Of course they will breed and their requirements will increase. The penny will eventually drop and the farmers will realize that growing food to feed animals costs money but yields no return. This makes no sense when they can sell it to the humans instead and meet the massive spike in demand for plant foodstuffs. Needless to say the valueless animals will be left to starve to death.

 

Giving up meat is going to have zero effect on curbing exponential human population growth but in all likelihood will lead to massive human and animal starvation along with accelerated and premature environmental damage.

 

Please don’t swallow all the bullsh1t vegans feed you, it has no nutritional value.

[forkie]

Bra, I am fully aware of the 6th mass extinction in case you have not noticed. We are actually well into the 6th mass extinction, and I am sorry to break this news to you, it is not caused by cows farting. The sole cause to the desperate state we find our world in is due to exponential population growth. For vegans to contribute this to meat eating is immoral and downright treachery. This is blatant misinformation and propaganda to further their agenda.

 

Even if every single human ceased to eat meat we still need an exponential growth in plant food production to feed our exponential population growth. This requires exponential water resources, exponential arable land, exponential fertilizer that exponentially pollutes and degrades our soil. All this requires exponential harvesting, processing, packaging and distribution.

 

How is not eating meat going to feed all these people? In fact not eating meat is going to have a very big negative affect because humans will be missing out on the high nutritional value and density that meat offers. As a result we are conservatively going to have to triple plant based output to match our minimum calorie intake. Of course this is not going to happen overnight, so while we are desperately trying to grow more food, many millions of humans are going to starve, be malnourished, have stunted development and of course die.

 

Practically, if we stopped eating meat we would still have exactly the same number of animals to feed which of course are going to fart exactly the same amount. Although we are not going to get any food value from these animals, we are still going to have to grow food for them, like we currently do (heaven forbid we starve them to death). They are still going to need exactly the same amount of pasture land that they need now, so we are not going to score extra land to grow our own food. Of course they will breed and their requirements will increase. The penny will eventually drop and the farmers will realize that growing food to feed animals costs money but yields no return. This makes no sense when they can sell it to the humans instead and meet the massive spike in demand for plant foodstuffs. Needless to say the valueless animals will be left to starve to death.

 

Giving up meat is going to have zero effect on curbing exponential human population growth but in all likelihood will lead to massive human and animal starvation along with accelerated and premature environmental damage.

 

Please don’t swallow all the bullsh1t vegans feed you, it has no nutritional value.

I like this post for the entertainment value and i love your attitiude. But your argument has some holes in it.

 

If we ate all the cows that are currently on the planet ( as per normal) but didnt make new ones, then they would slowly decrease in number with no additional suffering. as they reduce we could use their old pastures to grow crops and thus not have to destroy any more forrests. 

 

but this doesnt address the over use of fertilisers and pesticides which are killing our rivers, seas and bees. 

 

i think people should be allowed to eat meat but they must kill what they eat themselves. this would drastically reduce meat consumption and give people an appreciation for what is on their plate

Edited October 3, 2019 by forkie

[IceCreamMan]

Population growth is a huge issue, we certainly agree on that, but until its legal to euthanase a lot of them we have to address the problems we can. Livestock emission do account for an awful amount of the cause though and while I certainly agree that it will take a lot more than that to solve the problem it would be a massive massive start and its one we can do almost overnight with immediate results. Meat these days is also fairly tainted what with growth hormones and unnatural diets. We are literally eating substances that are not good for us. 100 years ago we were eating relatively clean healthy natural meat and we were eating relatively little of it. The population explosion did not occur naturally, it happened as a result of mechanisation, farming methods etc that allowed for its growth. Man's ability to survive has always been fairly closely linked to his ability to feed himself. This may sound childish but population growth is not possible where there is insufficient food.

 

A lil calorie deficiency will do some a lot of good.

 

Meat, as a source of food is fairly inefficient in terms of land usage. I do not have the stats to hand but I am sure Odinson would know the exact numbers. One can feed far more ppl using cattle land for farming. And of course, land that was previously doing good for the environment is now  being used for raising cattle..a double whammy.

 

Meat and personal transport are 2 factors that can be very quickly turned. It just takes a sacrifice, a lot of sacrifice.

 

Animals would certainly breed left to their own devices, but no where even close to the level they are now.

 

the above is fairly well known, and has been known for a long time. Maybe this thread should be preserved for its intention and this discussion taken to the climate thread.

[Mojoman]

Vegan bullsh1t propaganda readily sucked up by the gullible and easily influenced. You should join a cult, you seem particularly suited to brainwashing.

Common sense not visited you in a while I see.....

[Odinson]

Bra, I am fully aware of the 6th mass extinction in case you have not noticed. We are actually well into the 6th mass extinction, and I am sorry to break this news to you, it is not caused by cows farting. The sole cause to the desperate state we find our world in is due to exponential population growth. For vegans to contribute this to meat eating is immoral and downright treachery. This is blatant misinformation and propaganda to further their agenda.

 

Even if every single human ceased to eat meat we still need an exponential growth in plant food production to feed our exponential population growth. This requires exponential water resources, exponential arable land, exponential fertilizer that exponentially pollutes and degrades our soil. All this requires exponential harvesting, processing, packaging and distribution.

 

How is not eating meat going to feed all these people? In fact not eating meat is going to have a very big negative affect because humans will be missing out on the high nutritional value and density that meat offers. As a result we are conservatively going to have to triple plant based output to match our minimum calorie intake. Of course this is not going to happen overnight, so while we are desperately trying to grow more food, many millions of humans are going to starve, be malnourished, have stunted development and of course die.

 

Practically, if we stopped eating meat we would still have exactly the same number of animals to feed which of course are going to fart exactly the same amount. Although we are not going to get any food value from these animals, we are still going to have to grow food for them, like we currently do (heaven forbid we starve them to death). They are still going to need exactly the same amount of pasture land that they need now, so we are not going to score extra land to grow our own food. Of course they will breed and their requirements will increase. The penny will eventually drop and the farmers will realize that growing food to feed animals costs money but yields no return. This makes no sense when they can sell it to the humans instead and meet the massive spike in demand for plant foodstuffs. Needless to say the valueless animals will be left to starve to death.

 

Giving up meat is going to have zero effect on curbing exponential human population growth but in all likelihood will lead to massive human and animal starvation along with accelerated and premature environmental damage.

 

Please don’t swallow all the bullsh1t vegans feed you, it has no nutritional value.

 

Luckilly there are smart people who have pondered these questions for us. Like the IPCC and so many others have found, a plant-based diet will have a net reduction in arable land usage, CO2, fertilizers (wonder what gets sprayed on the grass grown for livestock?), etc. 

 

 

 

Because meat is more resource intensive than vegetal protein sources, replacing it with efficient plant alternatives is potentially desirable, provided these alternatives prove nutritionally sound. We show that protein conserving plant alternatives to meat that rigorously satisfy key nutritional constraints while minimizing cropland, nitrogen fertilizer (Nr) and water use and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions exist, and could improve public health. We develop a new methodology for identifying nutritional constraints whose satisfaction by plant eaters is challenging, disproportionately shaping the optimal diets, singling out energy, mass, monounsaturated fatty acids, vitamins B3,6,12 and D, choline, zinc, and selenium. By replacing meat with the devised plant alternatives—dominated by tofu, soybeans, peanuts, and lentils—Americans can collectively eliminate pastureland use while saving 35–50% of their diet related needs for cropland, Nr, and GHG emission, but increase their diet related irrigation needs by 15%. While widely replacing meat with plants is logistically and culturally challenging, few competing options offer comparable multidimensional resource use reduction.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-46590-1?fbclid=IwAR0Z7hhGSpZ8iYDbIcXvzGXhSJDYM5BpwNt_s1IhzJ7yMa4TmLLtbiZeAIo

 

Also take the time to read this, is very interesting: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6392/987

 

There's obviously no way the whole world will adopt one single diet, but the science is clear: more animal foods = poorer environmental outcomes; more plant foods, = better environmental outcomes. 

 

From section 5 of the IPCC report: 

 

[SwissVan]

I like this post for the entertainment value and i love your attitiude. But your argument has some holes in it.

 

If we ate all the cows that are currently on the planet ( as per normal) but didnt make new ones, then they would slowly decrease in number with no additional suffering. as they reduce we could use their old pastures to grow crops and thus not have to destroy any more forrests.

 

but this doesnt address the over use of fertilisers and pesticides which are killing our rivers, seas and bees.

 

i think people should be allowed to eat meat but they must kill what they eat themselves. this would drastically reduce meat consumption and give people an appreciation for what is on their plate

Nice human, suggesting the intentional extinction of other species to save yourselves

 

Tsk tsk

[WrightJnr]

I’m Healthy Diet trying to get to consistent Flexitarian state. Could I see myself getting to Vegetarian... eish don’t think so but somewhere between Flex and Veg would be my goal. Vegan, never say never but hell no is my current answer.

[forkie]

Nice human, suggesting the intentional extinction of other species to save yourselves

 

Tsk tsk

not sure where i suggested that

[Edition 507]

Luckilly there are smart people who have pondered these questions for us. Like the IPCC and so many others have found, a plant-based diet will have a net reduction in arable land usage, CO2, fertilizers (wonder what gets sprayed on the grass grown for livestock?), etc. 

And what have the smart people pondered about the billions of animals that are now not going to be eaten?

The sole value will be one of an environmental pollutant!

Shall we slaughter them to eliminate the formidable environmental impact they cause or would it be more humane to let them stave to death?

[DJR]

So, something from Belgium that has got me frustrated, angry and deeply saddened. 

 

A while back Flanders (the province of Limburg to be exact) became home to the first wolf in a long time, Naya. She moved in from West Germany. She was closely followed by the various 'boswachters' and the Nature Agency. Camera traps were set up and she was reported on regularly in the media. Later, a male also moved into the area, August. August and Naya paired up and in the spring Naya became scarce and it was realised that she had pups with August and that during this time he hunted for them and brought food back to the den. 

 

 

The past few weeks there has been concern, as Naya had not been spotted and August had started behaving erratically and no longer brought food back to the den. It was later concluded that hunters had gone into the area and killed Naya and in all likelihood her pups. There's now a €20k reward on offer for information on the hunters. 

 

It disgusts and saddens me that such a beautiful and natural occurrence (the return of wolves to the Lowlands) can be undone by a couple of arseholes with guns. 

 

How does this relate to veganism? Again, it's about the mindset that non-human animals are ours to exploit, whether for food, sport, entertainment, experimentation. We're in an abusive relationship with our fellow earthlings and that needs to end.  

I have looked around a bit on the internet and there seems to be no proof at all that anyone shot and killed the wolf. Hunters or otherwise. The best seems to be that animal rights and conservation groups have concluded that  because it was in an area where people hunt wild boar, she must have been killed by a hunter. 

 

That may well be, but it is only one of many a plausible explanation. Animals often die when giving birth or shortly afterwards from all manners of complications. Just to name one very likely alternative reason for her disappearance. Others would include getting run over by a vehicle. Getting poisoned unintentionally by humans trying to kill rats. Also, a grown wild boar male is more than capable of killing a single wolf. 

 

Show me the proof and I'll be the first to condemn whoever the culprit is, but to single out "hunters" without proof, does not help at all. Having a wolf population is something I would imagine hunters to be very much in favour of because it will improve the ecology and the health of the system, all of which will be for their benefit also. 

 

The effect of reintroducing wolves in Yellowstone is seen as a milestone. See link below.

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by DJR

[DJR]

Perhaps not the right thread, I know, sorry.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I have looked around a bit on the internet and there seems to be no proof at all that anyone shot and killed the wolf. Hunters or otherwise. The best seems to be that animal rights and conservation groups have concluded that  because it was in an area where people hunt wild boar, she must have been killed by a hunter. 

 

That may well be, but it is only one of many a plausible explanation. Animals often die when giving birth or shortly afterwards from all manners of complications. Just to name one very likely alternative reason for her disappearance. Others would include getting run over by a vehicle. Getting poisoned unintentionally by humans trying to kill rats. Also, a grown wild boar male is more than capable of killing a single wolf. 

 

Show me the proof and I'll be the first to condemn whoever the culprit is, but to single out "hunters" without proof, does not help at all. Having a wolf population is something I would imagine hunters to be very much in favour of because it will improve the ecology and the health of the system, all of which will be for their benefit also. 

 

The effect of reintroducing wolves in Yellowstone is seen as a milestone. See link below.

 

Dammit. Fell to my own rule about fact checking. Thanks for the info, D.