The Veganism Thread

[Odinson]

On a serious note (not trolling) - how do you cope with no animal products in your diet? Just from a convenience and taste perspective?

 

I eat very unhealthily, lots of red meat, very little veg. As an effort to change that I have committed to one month of pescetarian food only (so vegie + fish for those who don't know). My diet still includes animal products such as eggs, cheese, milk, honey, etc. The idea behind the change is that by cutting out meat I force myself to eat more veg thereby discover new foods. So far it has worked - I've found lots of new foods I like and when I reintroduce meat next month I will try my best for it to be less of a centre point of the meal, and rather just a part of the meal.

 

The places where I have struggled most to stick to it is eating out (few options that appeal to me), and I struggle to stay full. I feel the protein aspect is lacking a bit (I'm not a fan of beans/lentils/chickpeas) and I am trying not to eat fish with every meal (defeats the purpose of my experiment).

 

Now, without cheese, yoghurt, eggs, milk, and and and.... what do you eat? How do you keep variety in your diet? And what do you do for quick/easy meals as it seems that there is no easy and balanced options for vegans - most of the meals seem to need lots of prep?

 

I'm not going to become vegan (can't even manage pescetarian or vegetarian), so I am asking more from a curiosity perspective...

 

I get the reasoning behind veganism - I just don't get how practically you manage day to day - it must consume every part of your life - you have to plan every eat out, can't just pop in for a cappucino or quick lunch somewhere? Or am I missing something?

 

Good question!

 

First off, kudos on taking your health in your own hands and making some changes. 

 

Straight off the bat, a vegan/plant-based diet should only be as difficult as you choose it to be. There are perhaps some people that want to try it out and then set difficult standards, that will be discouraging over time. It's not about the acai bowls and spirulina smoothies you'll find on IG. For me, for most of my meals I eat like a pauper. I focus on a diversity of plant foods, so lots of grains, greens (leafy and cruciferous), legumes, veggies and to a lesser extent fatty foods, like nuts, seeds and fats. These types of foods are cheap as chips and available everywhere. You'll really have to be in the sticks not to find a can of beans and some potatoes. If you're new to this type of eating and try to replicate typical meals with meat replacements, you could, depending on where you live, run into availability issues. 

 

Regarding the flavour, plants are so good, dude. Once you cut out processed foods that are loaded with sugars and salts, your palate readjusts and you'll realise just how sweet a peach or sweet potato is and how flavourful something like kale is. 

 

I think that if you're someone who eat a lot of convenience food and rarely cooks healthy food at home, a plant-based diet in somewhere like SA could be more diificult. My suggestion is to simply make healthy food at home and find nice restaurants in your area for going out. There are apps like Happy Cow that helps you find vegan or vegan-friendly restaurants or eateries. 

 

And don't sell yourself short. If you had told me 4 years ago about not eating animal products, I would've told you to GTFO of my face. Maybe try a whole-food plant-based challenge once you wrap up the pescetarian one.  

[Odinson]

The secret to good vegetarian/vegan food is spicing. Meat is fairly easy - it already has a very strong flavour - all you need to do is enhance the flavour.

 

Vegan/veggie cooking you need to build a flavour profile from scratch. It's takes a while to perfect but once done you don't miss the meat.

 

I eat vegan/vegetarian at home most nights and eat meat when I go out. I actually look forward to meat more now and really enjoy it when I eat it.

 

I don't believe in diets that exclude food groups. You don't get as much nutrient variation.

 

Cutting out meat is good for the environment but cutting out all meat is bad for the human (emotionally and physically!).

 

Boil a piece (un-'plumped') chicken and eat as is and tell me if it's 'flavourful'.   I wonder with what virtually all meat is flavoured with? 

 

Again, it's a matter of perspective. I don't see animals as a 'food group', so it's not restrictive in my eyes. 

 

Cutting out all meat is bad for the human? Nope. Quite the contrary. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Odinson

[Odinson]

Didn't realise you needed a phd to pick up basic omissions and highlight cherry picked data from an epidemiology study, but ok. Chris Masterjohn (phd) had the exact same findings.  The study, it should be mentioned, also doesn't appear to control for other causal or mitigating factors like exposure to carcinogens, exercise, family history, etc. As mentioned, there's a lack of proper clinical studies when it comes to nutritional science.      

 

Spend some time on pubmed.gov and you'll see why your statement is not correct. 

 

 

 

[Eldron]

Boil a piece (un-'plumped') chicken and eat as is and tell me if it's 'flavourful'. I wonder with what virtually all meat is flavoured with?

 

Again, it's a matter of perspective. I don't see animals as a 'food group', so it's not restrictive in my eyes.

 

Cutting out all meat is bad for the human? Nope. Quite the contrary.

Sure you can supplement but it's easier to eat some meat - plus I really like meat.

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section3

[TIB]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

 

https://youtu.be/z0O_VYcsIk8

 

Come on Paddaman. You just can't just post three links.......

 

We need at least a 500 word post on this threat to prove it ... get with the program    

[FrankG]

Sure you can supplement but it's easier to eat some meat - plus I really like meat.

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section3

 

Our vegan diet does not require supplements, everything we need nutritionally is incorporated into our diet. Regardless of whether you are a meat eater or vegan, healthy food will require some effort.

 

As I have mentioned before on various threads here, the food we eat is delicious and is as tasty as any of the meat dishes I have eaten. But, it takes preparation like any healthy meal and my wife puts in effort to find recipes and she is always experimenting with new flavours etc. I don't know about SA, but in the UK just about every coffee shop will offer soy as an alternative to milk and most restaurants will have vegan options so we don't struggle when we're out and about.

[Odinson]

Sure you can supplement but it's easier to eat some meat - plus I really like meat.

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section3

 

Maaaan, you're going to make me bust all of those?! Contrary to my post count, I also have some work to do. 

 

Short 'n sweet: 

 

B12: Found in nature, washed off of plant foods by producers and filtered out of drinking water. Virtually all people should be supplementing B12. 

 

Creatine: non-essential nutrient. Your body makes it - no need for dietary consumption. 

 

Carnosine: non-essential. 

 

Vit D3: get some sun.

 

DHA: Converted by the body from ALA. Can be found in algae too. 

 

Heme-iron: psst! Non-heme iron is found in plants. 

 

Taurine: made by the body. 

[Odinson]

For those of you who think a whole food plant based diet is nutritionally deficient, read the Position of the American Dietetic Association on Vegetarian Diets: 

 

 

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

 

And the American Dietetic Association is by no means a pro-vegan/veggie association. 

[FrankG]

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

 

 

For the next 17 years, I ate grains, produce, legumes, and fake meat products like those Morningstar bacon strips that have a lower nutritional value than cat food. And for the next 17 years, it seemed like I was always hungry no matter how large my bowl of beans and rice. Even worse than constant hunger, I didn't seem to enjoy food the way other people did. Eating was a chore, like folding laundry or paying bills, but even more annoying because if I didn't do it I would die. I was sick of being hungry, I was sick of beans and rice.

 

 

Sounds like he was in a Vietnamese prison for 17 years vs living as a free man, no wonder he cracked!

 

I see that article is 4 years old, I promise you the quality and range of meat and dairy alternatives is significantly different nowadays    

[Odinson]

For the next 17 years, I ate grains, produce, legumes, and fake meat products like those Morningstar bacon strips that have a lower nutritional value than cat food. And for the next 17 years, it seemed like I was always hungry no matter how large my bowl of beans and rice. Even worse than constant hunger, I didn't seem to enjoy food the way other people did. Eating was a chore, like folding laundry or paying bills, but even more annoying because if I didn't do it I would die. I was sick of being hungry, I was sick of beans and rice.

 

 

Sounds like he was in a Vietnamese prison for 17 years vs living as a free man, no wonder he cracked!

 

I see that article is 4 years old, I promise you the quality and range of meat and dairy alternatives is significantly different nowadays    

 

   

[FrankG]

For those of you who think a whole food plant based diet is nutritionally deficient, read the Position of the American Dietetic Association on Vegetarian Diets: 

 

 

And the American Dietetic Association is by no means a pro-vegan/veggie association. 

 

Check out the Vegan Cyclist on YouTube, good channel and that dude pumps out a good number of watts on a vegan diet:

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpn6aFvwAI_hK9WuHcdvQGA

 

Back to work now, have a good one all 

[Paddaman]

Come on Paddaman. You just can't just post three links.......

 

We need at least a 500 word post on this threat to prove it ... get with the program    

There is the gamblers choice when it comes to dieting.  One strategy is to back a very high risk- high return approach, where you hang out on the outlier (black swan) edge of reason.  This is very much the Paleo-diet vs Vegan thing.  very much a limited diet restricted to meat- no meat,  high protein - no protein ext.  The advocates of such diets tend to be rather radical and extremist (Almost religious) in their views and commitment to their choices.

 

The other approach is a far more moderate, where there is a more inclusive, almost spread betting.  The motto here is "everything in moderation".  Here a bit of everything is acceptable, and because of the experimentation undertaken the advocates of this approach tend to be more understanding of other peoples dietary choices, and open to ne scientific findingd regarding diet.

 

Unfortunately, human nature seems to be replicated in this debate, where there may be a sense of "shame" driving the extremist views.  The embarrassment of being wrong is sometimes the only motivation needed for someone to continue to support an incorrect view point.  The more incorrect the view the more violent and radical the defence of that view will be.  Facts speak for themselves, where lies need an advocate.

[Eldron]

Maaaan, you're going to make me bust all of those?! Contrary to my post count, I also have some work to do.

 

Short 'n sweet:

 

B12: Found in nature, washed off of plant foods by producers and filtered out of drinking water. Virtually all people should be supplementing B12.

 

Creatine: non-essential nutrient. Your body makes it - no need for dietary consumption.

 

Carnosine: non-essential.

 

Vit D3: get some sun.

 

DHA: Converted by the body from ALA. Can be found in algae too.

 

Heme-iron: psst! Non-heme iron is found in plants.

 

Taurine: made by the body.

Sure some of them are made by the body but in much lower levels than meat eaters.

[Eldron]

Our vegan diet does not require supplements, everything we need nutritionally is incorporated into our diet. Regardless of whether you are a meat eater or vegan, healthy food will require some effort.

 

As I have mentioned before on various threads here, the food we eat is delicious and is as tasty as any of the meat dishes I have eaten. But, it takes preparation like any healthy meal and my wife puts in effort to find recipes and she is always experimenting with new flavours etc. I don't know about SA, but in the UK just about every coffee shop will offer soy as an alternative to milk and most restaurants will have vegan options so we don't struggle when we're out and about.

Sure - I said exactly the same thing earlier (if you cook right you won't miss meat).

 

Denmark is extremely vegan friendly and living vegan here is pretty easy. Me - I've lowered my meat consumption considerably but still eat some meat because 1) I like it and 2) I'm not convinced you can get all you need (in the levels needed!) from veggies.

[Odinson]

Sure - I said exactly the same thing earlier (if you cook right you won't miss meat).

 

Denmark is extremely vegan friendly and living vegan here is pretty easy. Me - I've lowered my meat consumption considerably but still eat some meat because 1) I like it and 2) I'm not convinced you can get all you need (in the levels needed!) from veggies.

 

Yeah, it was really great when I was in Copenhagen a while back. 

 

For me, the science tells me that the only 'concern' is B12. So, I go from that perspective. Ethically, I can't justify animal exploitation, but even if we saw a ~90% meat reduction in animal consumption in countries with Western(ised) diets, we'll be making massive progress and that'll put a big smile on my face. 

[Rocket-Boy]

A vegetarian/vegan diet wouldnt work for me, I cant eat things like pasta and breads no matter how "whole grain" they claim to be.

 

I get that people who are dong it love it and all of that but clearly it isnt for everyone.

My brother and sister in law have been vegan for many years now, they seem happy doing it but i can see what a mission it is for them sometimes to find things to eat when we are out.