The Veganism Thread

[Eldron]

The past two pages have really seemed to center around 'catching out the vegans'.

 

"Oh, you eat avos. What about the bees?" "Oh, you drive a car. What about the environment?" "Oh, you wear synthetic clothes. What about the plastic?"

 

This is classic psychology. It's a defensive response triggered cognitive dissonance. It allows someone to delegitimise the 'aggressor', so that it reduces the dissonance and allows them to continue on their way and not be faced with the possibility of having to change their habits or lifestyle.

 

The idea is to reach a point where you can say "Ha! I've caught you out. You're a hypocrite. Therefore, I can dismiss both you and the concept of veganism and carry on my merry way. I feel better now."

 

Let's make this clear: veganism is not the pursuit of perfection. There is no such thing. As seen on the OP - veganism is:

“A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

Is hell freezing over? I agree with Odinson!

 

It's much easier to knock down the people trying to do something than it is to look at/correct our own life choices.

 

Edit: It doesn't have to be binary - anyone can cut down their meat consumption or just make better lifestyle choices. You don't even have to call yourself a vegan (or tell your friends god forbid!).

Edited November 29, 2018 by Eldron

[Odinson]

Liewe moer. Are there actually people who do not eat stuff because a bee polinates it??? Wtf is wrong with a bee being a bee?

 

Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it. 

 

Bees are one of the multitude of pollinators. I posted a study on the hub, whereby the different pollinators in Mexican (world's largest avo producing country) avo orchards were assessed. Bees were some of the most ineffective pollinators, as they preferred plants growing outside of the orchards. 

 

The whole bee/avo/almond argument is an elaborate strawman. 

[Pieter1]

Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it.

 

Bees are one of the multitude of pollinators. I posted a study on the hub, whereby the different pollinators in Mexican (world's largest avo producing country) avo orchards were assessed. Bees were some of the most ineffective pollinators, as they preferred plants growing outside of the orchards.

 

The whole bee/avo/almond argument is an elaborate strawman.

Ah okay. I could not imagine people not eating stuff because of bees doing their thing. Wrt honey I get it but not pollination. Thanks for letting me know.

[Gen]

The past two pages have really seemed to center around 'catching out the vegans'.

 

"Oh, you eat avos. What about the bees?" "Oh, you drive a car. What about the environment?" "Oh, you wear synthetic clothes. What about the plastic?"

 

This is classic psychology. It's a defensive response triggered cognitive dissonance. It allows someone to delegitimise the 'aggressor', so that it reduces the dissonance and allows them to continue on their way and not be faced with the possibility of having to change their habits or lifestyle.

 

The idea is to reach a point where you can say "Ha! I've caught you out. You're a hypocrite. Therefore, I can dismiss both you and the concept of veganism and carry on my merry way. I feel better now."

 

Let's make this clear: veganism is not the pursuit of perfection. There is no such thing. As seen on the OP - veganism is:

“A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

No it has been a discussion.. questions asked because we don't know what is okay and what is not okay for Vegans to consume.

 

I still dont know what most vegans wear and I asked that a few pages back.

 

 

If I don't know about something I ask and have discussion from there on out..it may even become a debate ..doesn't mean it is an attack on someone's lifestyle.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Gen

[Gen]

One thing i found interesting was the cork bit..after I saw your cork wallet I read up on that..it is actually really cool

[Odinson]

No it has been a discussion.. questions asked because we don't know what is okay and what is not okay for Vegans to consume.

 

I still dont know what most vegans wear and I asked that a few pages back.

 

 

If I don't know about something I ask and have discussion from there on out..it may even become a debate ..doesn't mean it is an attack on someone's lifestyle.

 

Gen, it's for everyone to decide for themselves. There are no 'rules'. However, for those who align themselves to the ethics of veganism, they'll avoid buying clothes that contain animal derived components. 

 

Thus, no fur and leather and other animal-based additives. You can go for fair-trade organic cotton, polyester or whatever non-animal derived material. It's about doing the best, as far as possible and practicable for you. 

 

There are vegans who go for a minimalist lifestyle and only use 2nd hand clothes and then there are vegans who can afford the latest in high-end vegan fashion. It's all down to the individual. 

[Odinson]

One thing i found interesting was the cork bit..after I saw your cork wallet I read up on that..it is actually really cool

 

It is. Sustainable and quite durable.

 

It's a big industry in Portugal. If you ever go to Madrid, cork products are being sold all over and it's amazing to see the variety of different products that can be made from it. 

[Pieter1]

It is. Sustainable and quite durable.

 

It's a big industry in Portugal. If you ever go to Madrid, cork products are being sold all over and it's amazing to see the variety of different products that can be made from it.

Got a lekker cork hat in Porto. Was surprised how tough it is.

[forkie]

So, because the actions of others do not align to your world view, it's okay to trivialize and mock it? 

 

What were you saying to Mousea on the Lady Pros thread about double standards? Are you not applying the same double standard here? 

again - facepalm

[Gen]

Gen, it's for everyone to decide for themselves. There are no 'rules'. However, for those who align themselves to the ethics of veganism, they'll avoid buying clothes that contain animal derived components.

 

Thus, no fur and leather and other animal-based additives. You can go for fair-trade organic cotton, polyester or whatever non-animal derived material. It's about doing the best, as far as possible and practicable for you.

 

There are vegans who go for a minimalist lifestyle and only use 2nd hand clothes and then there are vegans who can afford the latest in high-end vegan fashion. It's all down to the individual.

Thx.

 

So what products do you have and purchase since becoming a vegan... this is just a question I am not trying to catch you out.

[Gen]

Got a lekker cork hat in Porto. Was surprised how tough it is.

I didn't even know you got so many different cork products..now I do

[Pieter1]

I didn't even know you got so many different cork products..now I do

Ja its crazy. My grandparents even had cork wall paper. If you can call it that, but the walls were lined with cork. I think it was only for looks tho.

[Odinson]

Thx.

 

So what products do you have and purchase since becoming a vegan... this is just a question I am not trying to catch you out.

 

I'm a notoriously bad shopper. So much so that my wife and I have little tiffs about me needing to put in the effort to buy new clothes. 

 

That being said, my most recent purchases were a Sea Shepherd jersey (actually a gift from my wife), which is fair-trade cotton. Bought a cotton jean, checking to make sure it doesn't have a leather patch on the hip. Some cotton socks and so on. My exercise gear is synthetic, as most are. 

 

I had some leather goods from my pre-vegan days (boots, a belt, etc.), which I've donated.

[stefmeister]

Corrected. 

Worth it?

[Gen]

Ja its crazy. My grandparents even had cork wall paper. If you can call it that, but the walls were lined with cork. I think it was only for looks tho.

My parents too.. it was quite the craze at a stage.

[Patchelicious]

Its seems there are 3 different discussions here for pro plant based diets.

 

1: Personal Health

2: Carbon footprint reduction.

3. Animals lives

 

The spread of your personal motivation over those 3 is what seems to frame our personal arguments.

 

So if I am mostly motivated to simply reduce my carbon foot print, there are other ways, which we have discussed that can really help. But that wont appease the mostly animal rights motivated people. and on the health thing, there are other meat inclusive diets that has some good science behind that might improve our longevity over our current diets.

 

The reason why I am pointing this out, is that we need to be honest about our motivations, if we are not we will likely always talk past each other.

 

If you are mostly motivated by the right of animals to live, like that chap in Odi's video who said that fact that hippos have canines proves we humans dont need meat, one has to be aware that he will likely not accept the myriad of carbon reducing actions one can take as good enough, while you are still eating meat 1 day a week. Just as an example of motive misalignment, doesn't make them wrong, just not aligned.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Patchelicious